Holidays are always good. Sometimes they're even great, and Celebrity Cruises is about to ruin all of that, because once you explore with us, you'll never want to holiday any other way, from romantic getaways in Italy and the Greek islands to unforgettable holidays in the Norwegian fjords. Nothing comes close to celebrity cruisers. Search celebrity

cruises to find out more. Ships Registry, Malta and Ecuador.

Hello, this is Hugo Rifkin, and now we're going to be unpacking the politics of the day

and the stuff that's even more important than politics too.

And joining me today are the columnist Zoe Strimple.

Hello, Zoe.

Hello, Hugo.

Thank you very much, indeed, for being with us.

You're welcome.

That was far fewer descriptors than I'm used to.

So have I done something wrong? I should have lined up plenty. Columnist, academic,

historic, writer, all around, amazing. Excellent, swing ball player. And also the multi-talented,

multi-roll-filling David Ronserman. David, good morning. Hi, nice to be here. Thanks very much

indeed for being with us, both of you. It's great to have you this morning. Look, nice to be here. Thanks very much indeed for being with us,

both of you. It's great to have you this morning. Look, we are talking on the day where we have

heard that Pope Francis has died at the age of 88. He was a very vocal pope championing liberal

causes, clashing with Catholic conservatives, and he was a champion of reform as well.

David, what are your, what are your reflections

on his death? Well, it was an event long foretold. My knowledge of paper politics mainly comes from

having seen conclave, I think like a lot of people, but my understanding is that his election

was a bit like that. You know, it was a very contentious event.

There was a lot of scheming.

...