‘A Sword and a Shield’: How the Supreme Court Supercharged Trump’s Power

The Ezra Klein Show

New York Times Opinion

Society & Culture, Government, News

4.6 • 11K Ratings

🗓️ 17 December 2024

⏱️ 45 minutes

🔗️ Recording | iTunes | RSS

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Summary

Donald Trump will enter office at a time when presidential power has significantly expanded, because of a string of Supreme Court decisions in recent years. These decisions can be understood to have two functions: They give presidents a “sword” to act more decisively and unilaterally, and a “shield” that protects them from prosecution against actions taken in their official capacity. What will these capacities mean for Trump’s second term — especially as he has promised to radically transform the federal government? Gillian Metzger is a professor at Columbia Law School who has studied the presidency, the administrative state and the Supreme Court’s relationship to both. In this conversation, guest-hosted by Kate Shaw, a New York Times Opinion contributing writer and law professor, Metzger discusses two key Supreme Court cases — the Trump immunity case, which gave presidents broad protections from prosecution, and the Loper Bright Enterprises case, which overturned the Chevron doctrine, expanding judicial power. Shaw and Metzger also cover how much leeway Trump actually has to take some of the bolder executive actions he’s floated, including ending birthright citizenship; what still remains uncertain about the federal government’s regulatory powers in the post-Chevron regime; and more. “The Demise of Deference — And the Rise of Delegation to Interpret?” by Thomas W. Merrill “The DOGE Plan to Reform Government” by Elon Musk and Vivek Ramaswamy Book recommendations Creating the Administrative Constitution by Jerry L. Mashaw The Forging of Bureaucratic Autonomy by Daniel Carpenter “Curation, Narration, Erasure” by Karen M. Tani Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at [email protected]. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs. This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Elias Isquith. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Mary Marge Locker. Mixing by Isaac Jones, with Efim Shapiro and Aman Sahota. Our supervising editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Rollin Hu, Kristin Lin and Jack McCordick. Original music by Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser.

Transcript

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0:00.0	Hey, it's Ezra.
0:01.7	So I'm taking a bit of time off this month, and we're going to have a few friends of the pod on the show to guest host episodes.
0:08.2	And today's host is the brilliant constitutional scholar Kate Shaw.
0:12.1	She is a professor at the University of Pennsylvania, Carrie Law School.
0:15.7	She's co-host of the podcast Strict Scrutiny and a contributing writer for New York Times opinion.
0:21.5	Enjoy.
0:30.8	From New York Times opinion, this is the Ezra Klein Show. Music In recent years, the Supreme Court has handed down a string of decisions that have fundamentally changed the federal government.
1:00.3	Court decisions have hamstrung the capacity of administrative agencies, and they have shored up the power of both the president and the court itself.
1:08.6	These decisions mean that Donald Trump will be entering office at a time
1:12.2	when presidential power has arguably never been stronger or more unchecked. At the same time,
1:18.4	Trump has promised to radically transform the federal government. Now, I don't want to make the mistake
1:23.3	of ascribing too much coherence to Donald Trump's vision of the federal government or of governance more broadly.
1:29.4	But it is worth taking a hard look at the way the court has reshaped the tools at his disposal
1:33.9	and what that could mean for how the federal government might work and what it might be able to do going forward.
1:40.8	To talk about all of that, I wanted to bring in Jillian Metzger, a professor of law at
1:44.6	Columbia Law School, who's been thinking very deeply for a long time about the presidency,
1:49.2	the administrative state, and the Supreme Court's relationship to both.
2:03.9	Jillian, welcome to the show.
2:05.0	Thanks for having me.
2:08.5	Okay, so to begin, I thought we could start with a proposition.
2:19.0	President-elect Donald Trump will enter office in January 2025 with more power and with fewer constraints than any other president in modern U.S. history.
2:20.3	Agree or disagree?
	...

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