Welcome to our fourth debate on a topic that divides Catholics and Protestants.

I'm here with Matt Fradd, and if you don't know, you should know because you guys are supporters.

I'm Cameron Bertuzzi, and this is what we're talking about today is prayers to saints,

and whether or not it's wrong or in some way problematic to pray to saints.

And so that's what we're debating or discussing today.

It's really more of a dialogue. These conversations that Matt and I have are more of dialogues.

But before we start, I just wanted to say thank you to all of the patrons and all the supporters that support this ministry.

Not just my ministry, but Matt, so if you support both of ours, just thank you so much.

You guys are what enable us to do what we do each and every day.

And it almost sounds like, as I'm saying all of this stuff out loud, it sounds like sort of robotic,

and that's because I just said it, and I added it out the first portion of this.

Apologies if it sounds robotic, but I really do appreciate everything that you do financially for our ministries.

And it just, it means a lot. There's no way that we, there's literally no way that we could do this without you and your support.

So thank you so much.

So let's get into it. So Matt, I was telling you before we started that I don't have an opening statement prepared,

because as I was doing my research, I came actually, a lot of people are, some people will be sort of disappointed by this.

I've come to accept a position that's very close to the Catholic view on prayers to saints.

So we'll talk about all that, but we're going to go through some of the common objections that have popped up.

And I was even defending prayers to the saints to a friend of mine earlier this morning, because that's sort of the position that I have now.

So, but we can kind of go through, yeah, we can go through some of that.

And then why don't we get, because I think it'll be helpful.

I've seen your, we're doing something different this time is we've swapped notes before we did our,

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