Hi, I'm Jonathan Lehman.

And I'm Mark Devere.

And welcome to this episode of Nine Marks Pastors Talk.

Nine Marks exist to equip church leaders of the biblical vision and practical resources for building healthy churches.

And you can learn more at 9 marks.org.

A lot more.

Mark, I want to try something more big picture in this conversation.

So ecclesiologist, me, wants to talk to historian you.

Okay.

So this is not like about my weekly schedule or stuff like that.

What can I copy I drink or things like that?

I want to do a nuts and bolts when on a pastures weekly schedule, but not this one.

Okay.

I'm not sure this is going to work.

Okay.

But let's try.

Every few months, I feel like I hear you making a few punchy points about the problems

of near Christianity.

And by that, I don't mean the book.

I mean the idea of centering our Christianity on the stuff Christians across traditions and denominations all agree upon.

And in a second, I'm going to ask you to riff on that.

But let me set the stage by inviting our friend Carl Truman to the table

...