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So I think for most Americans, news about South Africa ended in 1994, both literally we stopped getting a lot of news from the country,

but also people's views about it stopped evolving then. That was the year that,

the apartheid ended, I guess, officially. You had elections. Nelson Mandela is still a hero

in the United States, often referred to by politicians.

And it's, it's only been, I think, in American media in the past couple of months that stories that come out of South Africa that a lot of Americans have read that actually the country seems to be falling apart and that the government is kind of genocally racist.

Yeah.

And then President Trump in the past month

has basically said the same thing.

And it's shocking to a lot of people, I think,

how bad it is and just how racist it is,

far more than apartheid ever was. And so I'm wondering, since you've just landed from South Africa, you live there, what, describe the state of the country right now, if you would?

Yeah, well, perhaps I can start with your reference about the 90s, because it's absolutely true.

South Africa and America was very involved with the setting up of the political system

that we have in South Africa during the 90s.

And it was, of course, the end of history era.

Everyone is excited about the fall of the Berlin War and the whole world's going to be liberal and democratic,

including African countries.

And Samuel Huntington actually cautioned against this in 1996, saying, you know, when he wrote the clash of civilizations.

And he said, don't expect of African leaders and African liberation movements to suddenly become Western when you give them Western constitutions because they are still African.

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