They're coached. The leaders are convened on a regular basis so that they're held accountable and they're supported.

And it's actually a very small span of care. So folks worry about in a decentralized network,

is there going to be a bunch of heresy or a bunch of wolves coming in to get the sheep?

And it's like, actually, I think we have better oversight in our decentralized network than in most megachurches and I can speak from experience because I was a pastor in a megachurch for like 20-something years and now I've been a leader in a decentralized network for six and I'm telling you we have really really meaningful support, accountability, and oversight

because it's actually a family of families.

Today I am with my good friend, long-time friend, Rob Wagner.

Rob and I have written together, we work together, we continue to collaborate together.

And Rob, I feel like that Rob has one of the most unique stories going today because,

Rob, you were heavily involved for years as the founder of one of the largest

megachurches in the country. Then you actually were one of the leading teaching pastors at another

large megachurch in the Kansas City area. But over the last few years, a lot of people are

learning of you through your work with

the microchurch movement, and particularly the Kansas City Underground.

Now, I know you love the church.

You love the church, whether it's mega, whether it's micro.

Either way, is that true that you've not abandoned the mega church as you've moved over to the microchurch?

You just love the church.

I know that from knowing your heart.

Yeah, thanks, brother.

I do love the church.

I do believe that God's spirit enlivens and empowers all forms of the church.

I think all forms of the church can be healthy and all forms of the church can be sick. I think, I also think that personally I have a set of convictions that this smaller, simpler expression of the church is a better

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