support for NPR comes from the Syms Foundation since 1985, supporting advances in science, education,

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si Sims Foundation.org. This is Fresh Air. I'm TV critic David Bean, Coley. Hacks, the very funny TV series about an older

Vegas-style stand-up comic and the generational differences between her and her younger comedy

writer, returned to HBO Max last night for its fourth season. Today, we feature our interviews

with Gene Smart, who stars as Deborah Vance, the older comic,

with Hannah Einbinder, who plays her young comedy writer, Ava, and with Paul W. Downs,

who co-created, co-writes, and co-stars as their talent manager, Jimmy.

As the new season begins, Deborah and Ava are embarking on new jobs.

Deborah as the first female host of a Big Three network late-night show,

and Ava as her head writer.

It's a job she got by defying Debra, which changes their dynamic dramatically.

Deborah makes that clear on day one when she walks unannounced into Ava's new

office. Well, aren't you a big brave girl? I guess I am. It's for the best.

We'll see.

That's what's happening now on Hacks, but let's go back to the beginning, and start with Gene Smart, who spoke with Terry Gross when the show premiered on Max in 2021.

Smart's comedic timing was obvious in the 1980s sitcom Designing Women, and again in the early 2000s when she won two

Emmys for her guest starring role on Frazier. More recently, she's played some pretty tough

women in the TV series Fargo and Legion and in the HBO crime drama, Mayor of Easttown.

When Hacks begins, the career of Deborah Vance is in decline. In an attempt to

save her career, Jimmy pairs her with a young woman comedy writer, Ava, whom he also manages.

Neither wants to meet with the other, but they do, and Ava reluctantly flies to Vegas to meet

...