This is Fresh Air. I'm Tanya Mosley. And today, we're discussing the rapid dismantling of diversity,

equity, and inclusion initiatives, commonly known as DEI and both public and private sectors

nationwide. One side of the political spectrum praises DEI, often referring to it as a major

step toward progress. The other uses it as a slur, an example of woke culture gone too far, and it's become a challenge to debate its merits when we can't even agree on what it is.

The cascade to dismantle anything called DEI began in January when President Trump issued executive orders to eliminate initiatives within the federal government and institutions that receive funding from the government.

Since then, states like Florida, Texas, and Utah have banned DEI offices at public universities, and companies like Pepsi and Disney and McDonald's have done a way or quietly shifted their focus away from initiatives that promote diversity, equity, and inclusion.

To help us understand the criticism that developments and implications were joined by two distinguished experts,

Frank Dobbin, Professor of Sociology at Harvard University, and Ella Washington,

an organizational psychologist and professor at Georgetown University's McDonough School of Business.

Welcome to you both. Thank you for having me. Thank you. Well, I think it's good for us to start

with some basics because I'm not even sure when I'm in conversation with people about DEI if we're talking about the same things because it's become such a broad term.

So I think it's great for all of us to start with how you both define DEI.

And I'll start with you, Dr. Washington.

Well, you know, diversity, equity,

and inclusion is the terminology that we use at the current date. And it should be noted that

this terminology has gone through evolutions over the past six decades. At the core, what we're

talking about with this work is creating workplace environments and systems in our society where everyone has the opportunity to succeed and everyone has the opportunity to thrive.

That is the core of diversity, equity, and inclusion.

I would say in simple terms, DEI comes out of legislation trying to assure equality of opportunity that is having the same chances in the labor market by race, ethnicity, creed, starting in 1961, and then by gender as well, starting in 1964.

Can you all remind us of the realities for non-white men in corporate America, I mean,

corporate America, education, civic life before those civil rights protections, which was basically another iteration,

the earlier iteration of DEI as we know it. I think we have short memories and 60 years have

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