John McWhorter, Eli Lake, and Matthew Cockerill – Debating Civilian Casualties in Gaza
The Glenn Show
Glenn Loury
4.8 • 2.3K Ratings
🗓️ 24 January 2025
⏱️ 77 minutes
🧾️ Download transcript
Summary
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Video Links
1:08 Intros
4:24 Matthew: The IDF recklessly disregarded civilian life in its October 2023 bombing campaign
9:01 Eli: Israel made efforts to warn civilians ahead of bombings
15:31 Ground News ad
17:35 Are Gazan civilian deaths part of Hamas’s strategy or merely an effect of its strategy?
23:39 Counting casualties in the fog of war
30:04 If Hamas is still partially intact, can a ceasefire hold?
33:28 ACTA ad
38:53 Why Matthew thinks Israel was intentionally killing civilians early in the war
48:41 Is Matthew holding Israel to a different standard than he would hold the US?
52:39 Alternative strategies for prosecuting the war
56:16 Do civilian warnings negate the question of murderous intent?
1:01:46 Eli: I don’t think Jewish critics of the war are speaking for the larger diaspora
1:10:05 Is further normalization between Israel and the rest of Middle East coming despite the war?
1:15:10 Matthew: Israel clandestinely continued its initial starvation strategy in Gaza for monthsRecorded January 17, 2025
Links and Readings
Trailer for Eli’s forthcoming Free Press podcast, Breaking History
Matthew’s YouTube show, History Speaks
Airwars’ Gaza Patterns of Harm report
Yuval Abraham’s +972 piece, “‘Lavender’: The AI Machine Directing Israel’s Bombing Spree in Gaza”
Bethan McKernan and Harry Davies’s Guardian piece, “‘The Machine Did It Coldly’: Israel Used AI to Identify 37,000 Hamas Targets”
Glenn’s conversation with Omer Bartov
Motty Perry and Ariel Rubinstein’s Haaretz piece, “It’s Impossible Not to Know What’s Going on in Gaza”
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Transcript
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| 0:00.0 | Please consider becoming a paid subscriber to the Glenn Show at glenlawry.substack.com. |
| 0:06.6 | As a subscriber, you will receive new episodes on Mondays instead of Fridays and get access to ticket pre-sales to live events, monthly Q&As with Glenn Laurie and John McWhorter,, exclusive content and other benefits. Thank you. |
| 0:23.6 | Hello, everybody. This is Glenn Laurie. You've tuned in to the Glenn Show. I'm with John McWhorter. |
| 0:29.4 | My regular conversation partner every other week, we talk at the Glenn Show. He's a professor at |
| 0:35.5 | Columbia University and he writes a column for the New York Times. I'm a professor at Columbia University and he writes a column for the New York Times. |
| 0:39.3 | I'm a professor at Brown University and a senior fellow at the Manhattan Institute. |
| 0:44.0 | John and I are joined this week by Eli Lake and by Matthew Cockerel. |
| 0:50.6 | Eli Lake is an American journalist and podcaster. He's former senior national security correspondent at The Daily Beast and at Newsweek and a former columnist for Bloomberg. |
| 1:01.6 | And he writes about national security and other matters and host the Breaking History podcast. |
| 1:07.3 | Which will launch on January 22nd. |
| 1:09.2 | Say that again, Eli. |
| 1:10.4 | It launches on January 22nd with the free press. |
| 1:12.9 | We'll be hosting, launching on soon, coming soon. Breaking History Podcasts for the free press. |
| 1:19.3 | And Matthew Cockrell is a PhD student in history at the London School of Economics who also |
| 1:24.4 | runs a modest social media platform that he calls, |
| 1:28.4 | History Speaks. |
| 1:33.6 | He's a longtime reader and listener and subscriber to both Glenn Laure and John McWhorter and his role in peer reviewing an important study by an organization called Air Wars, |
| 1:40.9 | which has assessed the extent of civilian casualties in aerial conflict throughout the |
| 1:47.1 | Middle East, but especially in Gaza in the first month of the war, he has brought to our attention. |
| 1:53.4 | We decided it would be good to have a spirited discussion about that here. |
| 1:57.7 | Let me just say that Air Wars is a London-based non-for-profit company that tracks |
| 2:04.7 | and archives the International Air War against Islamic State and other groups in Iraq, Syria, Libya, |
... |
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