Maggie Haberman on How Trump Has Changed

The Ezra Klein Show

New York Times Opinion

Society & Culture, Government, News

4.6 • 11K Ratings

🗓️ 25 October 2024

⏱️ 60 minutes

🔗️ Recording | iTunes | RSS

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Summary

This week I published an audio essay about what I think is unique about Donald Trump as a personality and political figure and the dangers he poses if he gets a second term in the White House. But I wanted to go deeper on this topic with someone who knows him much better than I do. Maggie Haberman is a senior political correspondent for The New York Times and has traced his evolution over the decades in her 2022 book, “Confidence Man: The Making of Donald Trump and the Breaking of America.” In this conversation, we discuss what Haberman agreed and disagreed with in my essay, the forces that shaped Trump’s ideas of politics and power as a real estate developer in New York City, what she thinks he wants from a second term (including his desire for revenge), how his inner circle has changed since his time in office, what he might do if he loses and more. Note: This conversation was taped before Trump’s former chief of staff John Kelly went on the record saying that Trump meets the definition of a fascist and confirming that the former president made admiring statements about Hitler. Mentioned: “What’s Wrong With Donald Trump?” by Ezra Klein “Trump’s Speeches, Increasingly Angry and Rambling, Reignite the Question of Age” by Peter Baker and Dylan Freedman “Trump Leans On Creative Bookkeeping to Keep Up in Cash Race” by Shane Goldmacher and Maggie Haberman Book Recommendations: Kamala’s Way by Dan Morain Romney by McKay Coppins American Carnage by Tim Alberta Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at [email protected]. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs. This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” is produced by Annie Galvin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris with Kate Sinclair. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota. Our supervising editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Rollin Hu, Elias Isquith and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Jack McCordick.

Transcript

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0:00.0	From New York Times opinion, this is the Ezra Klein Show. So earlier this week I released an audio essay on Donald Trump and in a
0:29.2	ways about Donald Trump's mind and the peculiar ways in which it works the degree to which he moves through the world without inhibition,
0:36.0	and the ways in which that is potentially worsening as he gets older.
0:41.0	But more than that, it was about the relationship between Donald Trump
0:45.1	and the people and institutions that surround him. And the basic thesis of my piece is that
0:51.6	Trump is himself has always been a remarkably disinhibited
0:56.2	human being but in his presidency he was surrounded by people and institutions that inhibited his worst impulses.
1:05.0	He governed in a way in coalition with the Republican Party he did not yet fully control.
1:10.0	His White House was full of factions full of people who did not agree with him who were serving there in part out of duty, in part out of a belief that maybe he would not be as bad as he feared he would be.
1:21.0	And in many, many, many, many many cases things that Donald Trump wanted to do
1:25.3	he was not allowed to do but much of that will be different if Trump wins again
1:31.0	so I want to talk about Trump, about the people and processes
1:35.9	and institutions to surround him with someone who knows him much better than I do.
1:40.6	Maggie Haberman is a senior political reporter at the times, and she's the author of the great book,
1:46.8	Confidence Man, the Making of Donald Trump and the Breaking of America.
1:51.6	And she's kind enough in a very, very busy season to sit down with me.
1:55.0	As always, my email, Israel Klein show at NYUtimes.com.
2:00.0	Maggie Haberman, welcome to the show.
2:05.0	Thanks for having me.
2:06.0	So I had sent you this essay I was working on on Donald Trump and you said that some of it
2:10.8	landed for you and some of it needed more nuanced and context.
2:15.0	You know the guy so much better than I do.
	...

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