Hello and welcome to Ways to Change the World. I'm Christian Guru Murphy and this is the podcast

in which we talk to extraordinary people about the big ideas and their lives and the events that

have helped shape them. My guest this week is Mike Berners-Lean. Our Mike is a professor at Lancaster

University. He's a researcher, writer, also a consultant to business. And his latest book is called A Climate of Truth. And it's a

big challenge to us all and a sort of a roadmap for how the world could be a better place.

So welcome, Mike. Thank you.

In what way would you change the world?

Well, I would have a culture in which if you are seen to be deceitful of the public,

particularly in politics, media or business, that is treated as abuse. So, for example,

you're a presenter. If somebody in your position is found to have groped one of your colleagues,

you know that's the end of your career. And have groped one of your colleagues, you know that's

the end of your career.

And you also know that any of your colleagues who are found to have stood by in the

knowledge that that's what you've been doing, that's probably the end of their careers, too.

Well, we could have that culture or we could get closer to that culture around deceit.

If a politician has, is shown clear cut to have deliberately misled the public,

not just through lies, but any other form, then that is, that's, that's an abuse. We absolutely,

we can't afford it in today's world, and we have to get that out of the decision-making mix.

Now, this is part of a much bigger set of ideas that is sort of in response to everyone's

propensity to throw their hands up in despair and say, oh, well, there's nothing you can do.

Well, I've been working on the kind of climate and wider sustainability agenda for best part

of a couple of decades now. And, you. And we're not getting anywhere, right?

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