Tim Gegglein was with us last year to discuss his 2020 book toward a more perfect union.

And in between his work on the book as vice president, working as

vice president at Focus on the Family, he has written another book entitled Stumbling Toward Utopia,

how the 1960s turned into a national nightmare and how we can revive the American dream.

That's our topic today. Welcome Tim. We know each other. We're That's our topic today. Welcome, Tim.

We know each other. We're on a first name basis. Welcome, Tim. Thank you, Mark. It's great to be back

with you. I love first things, love everything you do. Thank you. Utopia. Just give us a refresher.

Where does that term come from? What does it specifically mean? You bet. Made very famous as the perfectability of man, made famous as the place, right?

Where with just the right amount of input and impact, we could have a land, an island that would finally

achieve what no land, what any civilization before had ever achieved, Utopia.

And I learned, Mark, in all of my research in preparation for writing stumbling toward utopia,

that, in fact, that is the definition, ultimately, of progressivism.

Progressives believe ultimately in the perfectibility of man.

And, of course, we believe, as as people of faith that there was only one

perfect God man, Jesus Christ. And we know that any alternative is a pretty bad goal for culture

and public life. But what I came to find in my research in writing, stumbling toward Utopia,

is that these people actually do believe in the perfectibility of man. They are social engineers

of the first order, you know, in everything from law and our legal system to their expectation of government and the Constitution,

through culture, popular entertainment, and on and on it goes.

You go back to the 1960s as a time of utopian thinking. There was a lot of it going on. And what, I mean,

what you just said, is that pretty much what those idealistic dreamers wanted, or at least

what they say they wanted? But does that, would you want to amplify what they thought they

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