Power is one of those terms that we all think we understand. It's being in a position to call the shots, to set the agenda, to lead others and maybe to boss them around or even punish them, right?

Our culture's understanding of power has been heavily shaped by one person, Niccolo Machiavelli, the Renaissance era politician and diplomat, who infamously wrote that power is

essentially about force, fraud, ruthlessness, and strategic violence. But what if he was wrong?

So what is power? Why do people seek it? What types of people seek it? And if you want power,

what's the best way to get it? Is it human nature to abuse power?

And why do some people lust for it? What is the impact of powerlessness?

Welcome to Speaking of Psychology, the flagship podcast of the American Psychological Association

that examines the links between psychological science and everyday life. I'm Kim Mills. Our guest today is Dr.

Dacher Keltner, founding director of the Greater Good Science Center and psychology professor

at the University of California, Berkeley. He is author of the best-selling book, The Power

Paradox, How We Gain and Lose Influence, as well as host of the podcast, The Science of Happiness,

which is also the name of a popular course that he co-instructs.

Power is one of the many areas he studies along with love, compassion, beauty, social class,

inequality, and awe.

Thank you for joining us today, Dr. Keltner.

It's great to be with you, Kim.

Here, speaking of psychology, we often start by defining terms.

And I ask this question in the introduction, what is power?

How do you define it?

And is your definition different from Machiavelli's?

Yeah, you know, this turns out to be one of the hardest things to do in the science of power.

You know, Bertrand Russell, the great philosopher, wrote that power is the basic medium of social life.

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