This episode of The Dig is brought to you by our listeners who support us at patreon.com and by Harvard University Press, which has loads of great titles, perfect for dig listeners like you.

One that you might like is The Idealist,

Wendell Wilkie's wartime quest to build one world,

by Samuel Zipp.

In The Idealist, historian Samuel Zip tells the story of Republican presidential candidate

Wendell Wilkie's 1942 World Tour.

As the threat of fascism swept the world, Wilkie challenged Americans to resist the

original America First Movement, warned of the dangers of narrow nationalism during World War II, and urged

Americans to resist empire and end racial segregation.

At a time when America first is again a rallying cry. Wilkie's

questioning of the liberal world order and his vision for democratic globalism is

indispensable history. The idealist, Wendell Wilkie's

wartime quest to build one world. By Samuel Zipp, out now from Harvard University Press. Welcome to the Dig, a podcast from Jacobin magazine. My name is Daniel Denver and

I'm broadcasting from Providence, Rhode Island.

I had been planning to do this interview with Joe Lounds and Nikil Paul Singh on the state of right-wing politics sometime soon. After last Wednesday, we decided to have the conversation right away.

Both Joe and Nakeel have been on the show before and the two, conveniently for you,

represent different tendencies of a left debate over how to think about today's right

wing.

This debate is often conducted on Twitter in the form of the question of whether Trump and

Trumpism are fascist.

I think that debate often conflates and confuses various debates.

One is over the question of how to define fascism.

...