One of the many things you do while training to be in the FBI is study criminal psychology.

And as part of that, they show you pictures of murder scenes. Just picture after picture of mutilated bodies.

Now, back in the 80s, when Susan Surtone was there, the bodies they showed, the corpses.

They were exclusively women.

Then, at the very end of the year, they gave the warning that they're going to show pictures of murdered men.

And before they did, they guaranteed that at least one person in the class would faint,

which they did, and that someone would throw up, which they also did.

You see, we are not accustomed to seeing images of mutilated men.

Even after being exposed to countless images of mutilated women, seeing men was processed differently

on a deeply visceral level.

And this is bigger than just dead bodies, right?

This conditioning relates back to how we see and experience different genders in every single

moment of our lives.

So today, Susan Serfton is here to talk about that, as well as the many other aspects of

her time at the FBI.

While she was there in the 80s, she was one of the very

few women who were agents. And she was not out of the closet. If you were back then,

you could not receive a security clearance. And then just to note, in honor of LGBTQ History

Month, we wanted to dip into the podcast archive for this interview with Susan.

It was originally taped all the way back in November of 2017.

So apart from hearing how my interview skills have changed in the last three years, I think,

you will also hear references to Jeff Sessions, who was Attorney General at the time.

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