The Dark Heart of Trump's Foreign Policy

The Ezra Klein Show

New York Times Opinion

Society & Culture, Government, News

4.6 • 11K Ratings

🗓️ 1 March 2025

⏱️ 81 minutes

🔗️ Recording | iTunes | RSS

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Summary

If you’re looking for a single-sentence summation of the change in America’s foreign policy under Donald Trump, you could do worse than what Trump said on Wednesday: “The European Union was formed in order to screw the United States. That’s the purpose of it. And they’ve done a good job of it. But now I’m president.” Trump seems to loathe America’s traditional European allies even as he warms relations with Russia. He’s threatened tariffs on Canada and Mexico while softening his rhetoric on China. And he seems fixated on the idea of territorial expansion — whether it’s the Panama Canal, Greenland or even Gaza. There is a “Trump doctrine” emerging here. It’s one that could be glimpsed dimly in Trump’s first term but is exploding to the fore in his second. What will it mean for the world? What will it mean for the United States? Fareed Zakaria is the host of CNN’s “Fareed Zakaria GPS,” a columnist for The Washington Post and the author of the best-selling “Age of Revolutions.” He’s one of the clearest foreign policy thinkers around, and he doesn’t disappoint here. This episode contains strong language. Mentioned: “The Rise of Illiberal Democracy” by Fareed Zakaria Book Recommendations: The Jungle Grows Back by Robert Kagan Diplomacy by Henry Kissinger The Wise Men by Walter Isaacson and Evan Thomas Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at [email protected]. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs. This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Elias Isquith. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Mary Marge Locker and Kate Sinclair. Mixing by Isaac Jones, with Aman Sahota. Our supervising editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Rollin Hu, Kristin Lin and Jack McCordick. Original music by Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser.

Transcript

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0:00.0	So before we begin today, we are doing more than a podcast these days. We have expanded into video
0:06.9	and these episodes are being recorded. And it's a different experience, a different experience for me
0:13.1	in creating it and recording it and having the conversation and then genuinely, I think,
0:17.7	a different experience in watching it. So you can find our YouTube page by searching Ezra Klein Show on YouTube,
0:24.1	or we will have a link to it in the show description.
0:32.5	From New York Times opinion, this is the Ezra Klein Show.
1:01.0	Thank you. Times opinion. This is the Donald Trump doctrine?
1:02.9	What is Donald Trump's foreign policy?
1:08.4	I think the place to begin to try to untangle what we've actually seen here is to listen to the way Donald Trump and Vice President
1:12.2	Vance speak about our allies.
1:14.9	I've had very good talks with Putin, and I've had not such good talks with Ukraine.
1:21.5	They don't have any cards, but they play it tough.
1:23.8	The threat that I worry the most about vis-a-vis Europe is not Russia, it's not China, it's not any other external actor.
1:31.7	And what I worry about is the threat from within.
1:35.3	The retreat of Europe from some of its most fundamental values, values shared with the United States of America.
1:43.3	I mean, look, let's be honest. The European Union was formed in order to screw the United States.
1:48.8	That's the purpose of it.
1:50.4	And they've done a good job of it, but now I'm president.
1:53.5	Something is new here.
1:55.5	The Trump doctrine that we've seen in the first month of this presidency
1:59.2	is going to reshape the world much more fundamentally
2:02.3	than Trump did in the four years of his first term.
	...

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