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It's up to you how much you give and there's no regular commitment. Just click the link in the show description to support now. Can you introduce yourself and tell me the title of the book real quick?

Sure. My name is name is Leonard Marsh Meyer.

I'm a senior researcher here at ETH Zurich at the Center for Security Studies.

And the book I just published and that we'll talk about today is the call subversion from covert operations to

cyber conflict.

That's a really wonderful book and I'm glad it kind of comes out at this time when I have been thinking a lot about what the

effectiveness is of information campaigns, what effect art and pop culture have on us, which is not what this book is about.

But it is this kind of, in a lot of ways I saw it as an attempt to understand how effective this stuff is and so being

able to read something that kind of really dove into that was extremely helpful for me and I really

appreciate it. I think the case studies and the kind of the history that you go into are pretty interesting.

Here up at the top, can you define subversion for me?

Yeah, sure.

I think it's a good question to start with too because it's really a term that's thrown around a lot, but it's very rarely clear what's meant by it.

I read a lot of the Cold War literature

to prepare and build kind of argument for this book.

And if you read that, it's subversion.

It's usually, if it is defined at all,

it's defined by a goal, and that goal is overthrowing a regime which makes

sense because that's what the two Cold War powers were doing to each other or not to each

other two kind of proxy states right To everybody in between them.

Exactly.

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