Hello, this is the Red Box Podcast. I'm Matt Chauley, and we're back with the Times Radio

Focus Group and association with Kex CNC. We asked a panel of swing voters, they voted

conservative, or Labour in 2019. They're now undecided. And we asked them what they think

about Boris Johnson and Keir Starmer, the cost of living crisis, the situation in Ukraine

and party gate on the day that it was confirmed that 20 fines have already been issued to

people in government for breaking lockdown rules. That's coming up in just a moment.

First, as ever, we kick off with our columnist panel, no of David at one of it this week.

He's still it away. It is smart breaks. So instead of Daniel Finkelstein, he's joined

by Oliver Kamm.

Well, let's start with the story that will delight half of the listeners and annoy the

other half, but it is the most new of the stories, party gate, 20 fines have been issued

to say, although we think it's to the people who didn't contest their involvement in parties.

So it probably doesn't involve the Prime Minister. And Danny, we've talked a lot before about

the, I can't remember what we call it, the Finkelstein theory, the tipping point. None of

this matters until it does matter. The Russian invasion of Ukraine has slightly overshadowed

things. Do you think we are heading back towards another point of trouble for the Prime

Minister? It's difficult to say. I do think it's changed fundamentally. It hasn't really

changed for me. My argument is we live in a parliament, democracy, not a presidential

one. The leadership of our country depends on the result of people in general and parliament

in general. And we have to be able to make sensible decisions about our own democracy,

not influenced by aggressive acts of Vladimir Putin. So it hasn't changed for me. But that's

a question in my opinion, not of my judgment about the situation. My judgment is it probably

...