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Welcome back to our new assignment, True Spies, debrief.

In the True Spies episode, Blinking Red, Gina Bennett described her experience as the first analyst to issue a warning about Osama bin Laden back in 1993.

After 34 years, Gina parted ways with her career in counter-terrorism.

And today, she's teaching and writing about what she describes as a new paradigm for national security.

True Spire's producer Morgan Childs caught up with Gina to hear about her latest work,

to better understand how a hunter-gatherer theory might help make the United States and the world more secure.

Well, I want to formally welcome you. Thank you for being here. I'm really excited to talk to you,

and I have a big question for you straight out of the gate, which is, you spent 34 years in counterterrorism

before retiring from the agency to focus on teaching ethics. And so I'm curious what it was

about the first chapter of your career that inspired a pivot to ethics and intelligence.

No, that's easy. I think it's really two things that come together. First,

it's the common narrative of espionage, spywork, the CIA, all of it. You know, whether it's us or

other countries, other parts of the U.S. intelligence community, this common perception

of what we do and how we do it, probably as importantly how we do it, whether it's from

movies or books or just media, you know, and I don't blame anyone for making entertainment. And the media,

of course, most media, they do their best, but it's hard for people to know what it's really

...