Unorthodox PM wisdom: Automating user insights, unselling job candidates, logging every decision, more | Kevin Yien (Stripe, Square, Mutiny)
Lenny's Podcast: Product | Growth | Career
Lenny Rachitsky
5 • 1.5K Ratings
🗓️ 18 August 2024
⏱️ 89 minutes
🧾️ Download transcript
Summary
Kevin Yien leads product for merchant experiences at Stripe. Before that, he meandered his way from being a technical designer to a product manager, built the restaurants business and ecosystem team at Square, and most recently was head of product and design at Mutiny. He also makes ice cream and teaches for fun. In our conversation, we discuss:
• Why aspiring PMs should start in engineering, design, or sales
• The importance of writing skills, and how to become a better writer
• How to automate user research
• Kevin’s “unsell email” technique for hiring
• The value of keeping a decision log
• Insights on AI and its impact on future generations
• Lessons from failure
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Find the transcript and show notes at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/unorthodox-pm-wisdom-kevin-yien
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Where to find Kevin Yien:
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kevinyien/
• Website: https://kevinyien.com/
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Where to find Lenny:
• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com
• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/
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In this episode, we cover:
(00:00) Kevin’s background
(02:00) The story behind Kevin’s profile picture
(08:41) The role of a product manager
(10:48) Getting started in product management
(12:47) The importance of writing skills
(15:06) Becoming a better writer
(19:10) The PM’s role with engineering and design
(28:41) Drawing the perimeter for your team
(31:37) Feedback tips
(35:13) Decision logs and product sense
(45:36) Unorthodox hiring strategies
(47:01) The unsell email strategy
(54:01) Automating user research
(01:02:27) AI in everyday life
(01:06:05) Lessons from failure
(01:14:34) Lightning round
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Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.
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Transcript
Click on a timestamp to play from that location
| 0:00.0 | The PM job can become a little too internal, influencing my stakeholders and getting alignment and all these things. |
| 0:06.4 | But if you can't sell or support your own product, I don't trust you to build the product. |
| 0:10.6 | You think every PM should keep a decision log. |
| 0:13.2 | We all talk about product sense. |
| 0:14.6 | To me, it's just a fancy way of saying you can make good decisions with insufficient data. |
| 0:19.2 | PMs need as many reps as possible in making decisions documenting the rationale behind |
| 0:24.9 | those decisions and then crucially seeing the outcome of them. |
| 0:28.1 | We have a lot of interesting approaches to hiring including this idea of an unsell email. |
| 0:31.6 | When you get to offer stage, I send an email |
| 0:34.6 | and I say all the terrible things |
| 0:36.4 | that are probably going to reinforce their fears. |
| 0:38.9 | If you can tell them that up front |
| 0:40.8 | and they can read that whole email and still be equally excited to join, you find yourself |
| 0:45.1 | any of those higher. I'm curious if you found any interesting uses of AI in your work. We are not even beneath |
| 0:52.4 | the dust on the surface when it comes to what's going to change. |
| 1:00.0 | Today my guest is Kevin Yan, Kevin Leeds Product for Merchant Experiences at Stripe. |
| 1:05.0 | Before that, he built a restaurant business and the ecosystem teams at Square, |
| 1:09.0 | and most recently was head of product in design at Mutiny. |
| 1:12.0 | He also makes ice cream, and as you'll hear in this conversation |
| 1:14.7 | was a pretty competitive eater for some part of his life. In our conversation, Kevin shares a ton of |
| 1:20.0 | unique and insightful perspectives on how to be a successful product manager, |
| 1:24.4 | including how to get into product management, how to improve your relationship with your |
... |
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