Everything rises or falls on leadership.

Ever heard that line?

Certainly, great leaders can make a big difference in the success of an organization.

But think about what that line applied to the church really means.

Does everything rise or fall on the pastor? What about the priesthood of all believers?

What about the body of Christ where each member plays a vital role? And most importantly,

what about Jesus? Welcome to the Roy's Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth

and restoring the church. I'm Julie Roy's. And joining me today is Lance Ford,

who spent decades planting and pastoring churches. And recently, we published his talk from the

Restore conference where he argued that so many of the scandals and issues that we see in the church

today stem from our toxic model of leadership. Well, today you're in for a treat because Lance is

joining me to discuss his new book, The Atlas Factor. And this book eviscerates the conventional

wisdom that leadership is everything. In fact, one of the most eye-opening things I learned in this

book is that leadership is a relatively new concept. Sure, there have always

been people who lead and manage organizations, but leadership as this thing that's crucial to the

success of organizations is relatively new. And certainly, the industry that's been built around

teaching and training people in leadership in both the corporate world and the church

is super new, like within the past 40 to 50 years. But I think the pressing question, especially

in the church, concerns whether these notions of leadership were training pastors to follow

are actually biblical. And if they're not, what's the alternative? We'll dig into those questions in

just a minute, but first, I'd like to thank the sponsors of this podcast, Judson University,

and Mark Orda Barrington. If you're looking for a top-ranked Christian University,

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