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I don't know.

That doesn't make any sense.

Curiously, Kate, yeah.

Dr. Glenn Packiam, thank you so much for joining me today.

So good to chat with you, Caitlin.

This is Dr. Glenn Packiam.

He is the lead pastor of Rock Harbor Church in Costa Mesa, California.

He earned a doctorate in theology and ministry from Durham University.

And he is the author of several books, including The Resilient Pastor and The Intentional

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