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Freakonomics Radio

628. Sludge, Part 2: Is Government the Problem, or the Solution?

Freakonomics Radio

Freakonomics Radio + Stitcher

Documentary, Society & Culture

4.632K Ratings

🗓️ 4 April 2025

⏱️ 49 minutes

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Summary

There is no sludgier place in America than Washington, D.C. But there are signs of a change. We’ll hear about this progress — and ask where Elon Musk and DOGE fit in. (Part two of a two-part series.)

Transcript

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0:00.0

Last week, in the first episode of this two-part series, the Nobel Prize-winning economist Richard Thaler

0:09.9

described one of the most common afflictions of our time. If you make things harder, I call that sludge.

0:18.1

Kind of a fun word for stuff that's the opposite of fun.

0:22.6

We heard how insurance companies use sludge to ration health care, how subscription services

0:29.8

use sludge to avoid cancellations, and how governments are full of sludge because, well,

0:36.6

because sludge is an almost inevitable

0:38.8

byproduct of bureaucracy. Today, in part two, we look at ways to fight sludge through better

0:46.3

legislation, through the use of artificial intelligence, and maybe by hiring a personal

0:54.0

sludge coach.

0:55.4

I'm not available.

0:57.6

That's okay.

0:58.8

We are available, starting now.

1:06.3

This is Freakonomics Radio, the podcast that explores the hidden side of everything, with your host, Stephen Dubner.

1:19.4

It is a natural temptation to think that your problems are worse than other people's problems.

1:34.7

Also, to think that the problems of our generation are worse than previous generations.

1:39.7

But as it was written way back in Ecclesiastes, there is nothing new under the sun.

1:47.0

And so it is with sludge.

1:49.0

For many years, it went by another name, a prettier name, red tape.

1:54.0

Do you know the story of how red tape got its name?

1:57.0

Here, it's a cute story, I'll tell you.

1:59.0

It apparently dates back to 16th century Spain in King Charles V,

2:03.5

who had his most important legal documents bound in red ribbon, eye-catching and expensive ribbon,

...

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