Hello,

Hello, Prestige Head's

To your soul

and the next Hello, Prestige Heads, and welcome to American Prestige.

I'm Danny Bessner, here as always with my friend and comrade at Derek Davison.

And we're very excited to welcome to the podcast today, Charlie Carpenter.

Charlie is a professor at UMass Amherst in the Department of Political Science and Legal Studies.

And we've invited

her on to talk about her recent article titled The Rules-Based Order is less dependent on the U.S.

than Biden's Critics Think, which was written for the World Politics Review. So first, Charlie,

thank you so much for joining us. It's great to be here, Danny. Thanks having me.

Yeah, no, we appreciate it.

So maybe we could just start with the rules-based order, the international liberal order,

whatever you want to call it, has had a lot of different definitions swirling around.

So maybe we could just start with what do you mean by the rules-based order?

Okay, so I am using the term perhaps more loosely than most people use it, and perhaps not.

I mean, it's also a reaction to how we often hear it used.

What people mostly mean by it these days is the cluster of rules and norms and institutions that were established after World War II and have proliferated quite globally, the United Nations, Charter, the Geneva Conventions, a set of rules and norms around free trade, democracy promotion.

So they're sort of associated with liberalism, human rights, territorial sovereignty,

et cetera.

And what I would say is that when I think about rules, you know, this term was originally

introduced by Secretary of State Clinton to then Australian-based Prime Minister Kevin Rudd, really to as more of an aspirational idea that this is a world we should be striving to.

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