Marion, I'm starting to think that we should change the name of this podcast to what the fuck is going on.

Or am I dreaming this?

Maybe a shit show abroad.

Yeah, shit show abroad.

I mean, your suggestions on a postcard. When you heard Donald Trump blame Ukraine for being invaded, was that a new low in what you've witnessed in the last few years since 2016?

Well, to hear, I mean, when you see the courage that the Ukrainian people have had,

and the courage that they fall with, and in particular, Zelensky, who Trump has had it in for,

you know, this is a man of extraordinary courage.

And I think when the history books are written, I hope that's recognized.

Because if you go back, I remember being

in the press library or in the press gallery, I should say, in Senate Press Gallery during the

first impeachment hearings. And what were they about? They were, Trump said, we're withholding money.

I think at the time was whatever a huge amount of money was in military aid. And at that stage, Zulenski,

former comedian had just been elected president. And Trump said, if you don't investigate Joe

Biden and his family, if you don't launch a criminal investigation into them, I'm withholding

this desperately needed military aid. And this was before Russia had invaded, but when all the warning signs were there.

And Zelensky refused to do it.

Even though he knew the importance of getting on the right side of Trump,

he wouldn't, he refused to invent a criminal prosecution to authorise a phony prosecution

against a political rival, against Trump's political rival.

And that on its own took enormous courage. And when you see, of course, Trump, the famous

grudgeholder, never forgave him for that. And that was the first impeachment. But when you see

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