Hi, this is Jonathan Lehman.

Welcome to this episode of Nine Marks Pastors Talk.

Nine Marks exists to help build healthy churches.

Help pastors build healthy churches is what we're trying to do.

Learn more at nine marks.org or if you want to help the work we're doing,

go to nine marks.org forward slash talk.

The guy in the background running the sound is whispering those words to me to make sure I get them right.

This morning or right now, because who knows when you're listening to this,

I have a special guest with me, a friend who I'm very grateful for.

I'm grateful for his writing.

I'm grateful for his careful thinking.

I'm also especially grateful for amidst all that careful thinking, really good pastoral instincts.

And he and I are in a text thread together.

And I get to see in which we discuss with a few other guys, all sorts of things in the life.

And I get to see him think both theologically and pastorally, which are two things that don't always go together.

Kevin DeYoung.

Kevin, thank you for being here and having this conversation.

It is great to be with you.

You know, when I do my podcast and I always introduce my special guest and I just say that,

I always wonder if one of these times I'll just, you know, a not very special guest,

just very ordinary plain.

So I appreciate being special.

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