we should be thinking, how do we get to, I personally think, and I know you told me on our show,

you just did the episode with Matt Karp, which I want to listen to. So I don't want to go over

too much ground. But what's our Liberty Party moment, like where all the abolitionists, even

though they were very small and had a limited impact on what took place, although not irrelevant,

but limited, came together more or less. I mean, obviously, they're the non-political ones, but

who were very important people, including Frederick Douglass at that original time. But anyway,

and saying, here's our first foray out here, united abolitionists, getting into the arena.

Like, if we agree we need to be outside the Democrats, critical of capitalism,

addressing the actual other issues in society affecting people from a class and other forms of oppression

point of view. Like if we're generally agreed there, can we get to a point of unity and could

we punch above our weight? And is the Bernie experience one that we can learn from in that regard?

Yes. So I guess I agree in general. I don't really know if it was possible in 2024. That's my

view. But I do think as a

principle for 2028, it's something to talk about and to see if more alignment can come together

about the dirty break issue in some ways. I don't know if it can be engineered. That's also one of

these principal things. That's a good point. But it almost has to be like a real break of people who weren't

trying to break, who represent real social forces. In a way, I think that is a little bit what happened

with Bernie. He'd been an independent, but like obviously he had been very ensconced in the

democratic sort of world. In many ways, he had sort of limited himself to be closer to elements

of the Democratic Party that didn't want to have

heavy critiques on foreign policy, which is why, you know, a lot of people in Vermont will tell you

that was one of their biggest gripes of Bernie. I can say for sure, people who have like less

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