Hi, I'm Jonathan Lehman.

Welcome to this episode of Nine Marks Pastors Talk.

Nine Marks exists to equip church leaders with a biblical vision and practical resources for building healthy churches learn more at nine marks.org.

My friend Mark Devere is in Australia for several weeks, so it's just me or not just me.

Today I'm here with my friend Mark Vrogop.

We switched one mark for another.

Yay.

Mark, thanks for being with us.

Jonathan, it's great to be with you.

Mark is the pastor of College Park Churches in Indianapolis,

and the author of Dark Cloud's Deep Mercy, Discovering the Grace of Lament.

Mark, you didn't take my bait.

No, I didn't.

I've learned, Jonathan, not to take your bait, just to wait and see where it's going to go.

You're just entirely too godly.

Oh, I don't know about that. Just maybe too bruised.

What?

Yeah. No, for the record, we don't have multiple churches. We only have one church. It's

College Park Church. And then we have other churches that are church plants. Amen that's another podcast. That's another podcast. Brother, how long have we

known each other? Oh, gosh. 2014 on sabbaticals when we met. So about five years ago. Yeah.

Okay. And I'm just been grateful for you and your friendship. For listeners, Mark, as a pastor, who in almost every way, I admire tremendously. I appreciate, brother, how carefully you think theological, but then also how pastoral you are. You just have a consistent track record of that. So thank you for your example to me and to others. And I trust listeners will even hear that in this conversation.

Thank you. It's kind of you to say. I hope it's true.

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