guest. Natalie Martinek, how are you? Welcome to Out With Unleached.

Oh, thanks Stephen. Thanks for having me.

It's entirely our pleasure.

Maybe before we get into some of these big topics, you can let our listeners and viewers know what keeps you

busy how do you describe your work? I'm fascinated by bad behavior that I see in institutions and society, in families, in our friend groups, and I like to

unpack what's going on driving our behavior when we all want to have a peaceful world I imagine.

So that's what keeps me busy.

That is fascinating.

I think people are kind of drawn to bad behavior in a sense you know far more than good

behavior just in my my kind of anecdotal observations would you say that's true?

Yeah I think we like trauma.

We like things that are entertaining and stimulating

and peace is not that sexy or interesting,

unless of course you're interested in how peace, you know, conditions that create peace which I think we should all be interested in and actively working towards but um yeah humans love drama wouldn't you say? I agree, yeah, for sure.

I suppose that, you know, the rise of the sort of true crime genre has just gone from strength

to strength in recent years, I think we think we like bad behavior in conjunction

with something grisly as well. I've got a lot of our darkest instincts seem to capture the attention,

but this isn't purely just morbid curiosity with you obviously because you're you're

researching it you're trying to unpack it and understand it and not only that provide ways for people to

deal with it and not be manipulated in certain ways.

So maybe, I mean, one of the key folks

is narcissism, of course.

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