A Note from James:

As you listen to this episode, ask yourself: would you do what my guest Scott Payne did for 28 years? He’s a retired undercover FBI agent who spent nearly three decades infiltrating some of the most dangerous groups in America—white supremacist organizations, outlaw biker gangs, and domestic terror cells. His new book, Code Name: Pale Horse, reveals the harrowing details of his undercover life, including moments where he was seconds away from being exposed and killed.

Scott spent 18 months embedded with the Outlaws motorcycle gang. In one chilling moment, they decided to strip-search him while he was wired up, a scenario that could have ended him on the spot. He also infiltrated the KKK in Alabama, adopting the codename Pale Horse to penetrate a violent neo-Nazi cell known as The Base, which was actively planning attacks and preparing for a so-called race war.

This is raw, unfiltered, and straight from the front lines of America’s most dangerous extremist groups. Scott took unimaginable risks to save lives and bring criminals to justice—all while balancing a wife, two daughters, and his faith. This episode is an unmissable look at the dark corners of our country and the people working to expose them.

Episode Description:

What does it take to spend 28 years undercover, living among America’s most dangerous criminals? Scott Payne knows firsthand. As an FBI agent, he infiltrated violent white supremacist groups, outlaw biker gangs, and domestic terror cells. In this conversation, Scott shares never-before-heard stories from his career, including how he convinced extremists that he was one of them, how he barely escaped being exposed, and the mental toll of living a double life.

Scott’s new book, Code Name: Pale Horse, pulls back the curtain on his undercover operations. He details how groups like The Base aren’t just talking about hate—they’re planning violence, training for guerrilla warfare, and actively trying to accelerate societal collapse. This episode provides a rare look inside these organizations and the tactics used to dismantle them.

We also discuss the modern landscape of extremism, the role of AI in radicalization, and what everyday citizens can do to spot warning signs before it’s too late.

What You’ll Learn:

• The chilling reality of undercover work inside violent extremist groups.
• How Scott Payne survived a strip search while wired up by an outlaw motorcycle gang.
• The tactics white supremacist accelerationists use to create chaos and violence.
• How radicalization is happening online—and why it’s spreading faster than ever.
• The psychological toll of pretending to be someone else for nearly three decades.
• What law enforcement and the public can do to stop domestic terrorism.

Timestamped Chapters:

[00:00] Introduction to Scott Payne's Undercover Life

[01:32] Infiltrating the Outlaws Motorcycle Gang

[02:15] The Strip Search Incident

[04:01] Navigating Undercover Risks

[21:35] Balancing Personal and Professional Life

[24:23] Understanding Modern White Supremacist Groups

[35:32] Misconceptions About Terrorist Profiles

[36:15] The Role of Technology in Monitoring Threats

[36:59] Balancing Privacy and Security

[38:10] Challenges in Identifying Domestic Terrorists

[39:04] Infiltrating Hate Groups

[40:35] The Reality of Undercover Work

[42:48] The Threat of Radicalization

[48:47] The Importance of Communication and Vigilance

[51:12] The Psychological Toll of Undercover Operations

[01:06:14] The Future of Law Enforcement and Counterterrorism

[01:10:01] Conclusion and Future Endeavors

Additional Resources:

• Code Name: Pale Horse by Scott Payne
• Life After Hate – Organization helping people leave extremist groups
• Eradicate Hate Global Summit

P.S. The CBC is running a companion podcast that is starting, It’s the second season to their mega-hit “White Hot Hate” podcast. https://app.magellan.ai/listen_links/palehorsepod

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