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The Ezra Klein Show

Is This How a Cold War With China Begins?

The Ezra Klein Show

New York Times Opinion

Society & Culture, Government, News

4.611K Ratings

🗓️ 27 January 2023

⏱️ 51 minutes

🧾️ Download transcript

Summary

There are few issues on which the dominant consensus in Washington has changed as rapidly in recent years as it has on China. Donald Trump made taking on China a core pillar of his campaign and presidency. And while Joe Biden has toned down the harsh anti-China rhetoric of his predecessor, many of his administration’s policies have gone even further than Trump’s did. In October the Biden administration unveiled sweeping controls on advanced chip exports to China — a move that former Trump officials have described as a sharp break from where their administration’s policies were. And the Biden administration doesn’t intend on stopping there: It plans to roll out further controls that target China’s biotech and clean energy sectors. Meanwhile, Biden has repeatedly voiced such strong declarations of American military support for Taiwan that his own administration has had to walk them back. And, in Congress, China policy is one of the few areas Democrats and Republicans seem willing to work together — almost always in the direction of getting tougher on Beijing. Jessica Chen Weiss is a political scientist and China scholar at Cornell. From August 2021 to last July, she was a senior adviser in the Biden State Department. And she emerged from that experience as one of the most outspoken critics of Washington’s more hawkish turn regarding China. “The more combative approach, on both sides, has produced a mirroring dynamic,” Weiss wrote in a 2022 essay called “The China Trap.” She worries that Beijing and Washington are misreading each other’s ambitions, resulting in a “downward spiral” of mutual aggression that will leave both sides — and the world more broadly — less prosperous and secure. So I asked Weiss to come on the show to help me understand the state of U.S.-China relations and why she thinks it’s headed in the wrong direction. Mentioned: “The China Trap” by Jessica Chen Weiss “A World Safe for Autocracy?” by Jessica Chen Weiss Book Recommendations: Seeking Truth and Hiding Facts by Jeremy L. Wallace Our Missing Hearts by Celeste Ng See No Stranger by Valarie Kaur Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at [email protected]. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs. “The Ezra Klein Show” is produced by Emefa Agawu, Annie Galvin, Jeff Geld, Rogé Karma and Kristin Lin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris. Original music by Isaac Jones. Mixing by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Pat McCusker and Kristina Samulewski.

Transcript

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0:00.0

I'm Mr. Climb. This is the Ezra Kahn Show.

0:23.3

It's part of the great narrative of American politics that Donald Trump took on China.

0:27.7

He said China was raping us. They were cheating American businesses or taking our jobs, screw

0:31.8

in us over in deals. And one thing here with Trump, he didn't just talk. He actually

0:35.8

took action. He began a trade war. He blocked the Chinese company Huawei. He moved towards

0:40.2

forcing the self-tick-talk. And just fundamentally, he treated China as a threat, as a quasi-anemy,

0:48.2

not really as a partner. And then in 2020, whatever he says, he lost. And Joe Biden,

0:53.6

with his more measured rhetoric and his continuity with the Obama team, he took the White House.

0:58.8

But he didn't go back to the old consensus on China. He didn't roll back Donald Trump's

1:02.8

policies. He went way further. He's more measured in how he talks about China than Trump

1:07.7

was, but the places where he isn't, they're more consequential, like in his repeated

1:11.7

declarations about how far America will go in supporting Taiwan. Declarations his own

1:16.4

administration is repeatedly now walked back. And it's not just Biden. Washington as a whole

1:22.4

is increasingly hawkish on China. Bills like the inflation reduction act and the Chips

1:26.6

and Science Act, they're often framed as opposition to China. If you want to get something

1:30.4

done in Washington two days that is bipartisan, you frame it as competition with China. Nancy

1:35.8

Pelosi, she visited Taiwan against a pleas of much of Washington's foreign policy community.

1:41.1

There is this dynamic in Washington right now where there's a lot of consensus around China,

1:44.7

but always in the direction of getting more hawkish, more confrontational with Beijing. And

1:49.4

that is not in any way to say there aren't real reasons for that or that Beijing doesn't

1:53.6

hold some responsibility for that. But it is a dynamic that needs to be named and looked

1:59.1

at and thought about. Jessica Chen, why has been trying to do that? She's a political

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