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The Ezra Klein Show

There’s Been a Revolution in How China Is Governed

The Ezra Klein Show

New York Times Opinion

Society & Culture, Government, News

4.611K Ratings

🗓️ 24 January 2023

⏱️ 80 minutes

🧾️ Download transcript

Summary

There are few stories that are more crucial to the world’s future than what’s happening in China. Take any of the most important issues of our time — climate change, geopolitics, the global economy, advanced technologies — and China is at the center of them. American politics itself has increasingly come to revolve around competition with China. In other words, what happens in China doesn’t stay in China — it reverberates through the global economy, the American political system and the international order. And a lot is happening in China right now. In November, China experienced what many have called its most significant protests since Tiananmen Square in 1989. In response, Beijing loosened its “zero Covid” policy, demonstrating a level of public responsiveness that shocked many observers of the increasingly authoritarian regime. However, that policy shift also unleashed a huge wave of infections and hospitalizations that puts the country’s immediate future in question. Yuen Yuen Ang is a professor of political economy, a China scholar at Johns Hopkins University and the author of “China’s Gilded Age: The Paradox of Economic Boom and Vast Corruption.” Her basic argument is this: In order to understand what’s happening in China today (and what all of it could mean for its future) you need to first understand China’s unique, often misunderstood political system — one that Ang calls “autocracy with democratic characteristics.” Because we in the West are so fixated on how China selects its leaders, she argues, we’ve overlooked a more subtle but far more consequential revolution in how China is governed. That transformation of the Chinese political system is the deeper story behind both the country’s economic success — as well as its current troubles. And it provides an illuminating lens through which to view American politics as well. Mentioned: “An Era Just Ended in China” by Yuen Yuen Ang “The Problem With Zero” by Yuen Yuen Ang “The Procedure Fetish” by Nicholas Bagley Book Recommendations: From The Soil by Fei Xiaotong Fei Xiaotong and Sociology in Revolutionary China by R. David Arkush The Fractalist by Benoit Mandelbrot Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at [email protected]. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs. “The Ezra Klein Show” is produced by Emefa Agawu, Annie Galvin, Jeff Geld, Rogé Karma and Kristin Lin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris and Kate Sinclair. Original music by Isaac Jones. Mixing by Jeff Geld. Audience strategy by Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Carole Sabouraud and Kristina Samulewski.

Transcript

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0:00.0

I'm as reclined. This is the Ezra Conchell.

0:23.9

I guess I'll begin by saying that if I sound a little horse today, little husky, I am

0:29.4

to every parent who ever told me how bad cold and flu season is, what an unending, unrelenting

0:36.0

disruption of life it is. I am so sorry I did not understand what you're saying to

0:40.8

me. I did not get it. And now I do. It is wild that parents just go on like this.

0:47.5

Okay, the episode today though. You can't understand this era in American politics without

0:54.0

recognizing that it's playing out in the context of China. Sometimes it's direct as in

0:59.0

the way much of American manufacturing moved off shore to China, altering the politics

1:02.9

of a lot in the Midwest. Sometimes it's indirect as in the way the sense of China still builds

1:08.0

things and we don't, has become a driving political argument and has largely inspired

1:13.2

I think the new focus on production and industrial policy in Washington. Things like the Chips

1:18.2

and Science Act are explicitly framed as keeping our technology lead or increasing our

1:24.3

technology lead vis-à-vis China. And a lot that is happening in terms of by American

1:28.3

and supply chain rules. They're about trying to rebuild a manufacturing capacity so that

1:33.0

we are not dependent on China. I say all that because there is a sense

1:38.3

it covered China is to cover something far away. It's a foreign policy episode. I don't

1:44.4

think that's true. I don't think that distinction actually holds. China's size and centrality

1:48.8

make it a kind of political hyper object. It's near and far and different and familiar

1:53.7

and here and there all the same time. To cover China is to cover in a way America. And

1:58.9

I am of course typing these words on a device made in China really literalizing the point

2:03.8

of this introduction. So this year on the show we're going to be spending more time covering

2:08.0

China and the China-US relationship. And I want to begin that with Yuan Wen-ong, a

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