But I think the real game changer, especially in democracies, is Brexit and especially the 2016

presidential election, where the idea is that these huge momentous events that sort of signal a shift

in liberal democracies have come about through disinformation campaigns, through lies

that pander to populist forces, not least in the U.S., where it sort of becomes a truth

that it's Russian disinformation online has essentially contributed significantly to

Trump's election victory.

And now the good fight with Yasha Monk.

Long time listeners to this podcast know that one of the topics that's particularly dear to my heart is free speech.

They may also recognize that I have taken a somewhat American line on free speech, that I believe that for many other aspects of the American protocol system where I think the United States has something to learn from other countries, the one where

other countries have a lot to learn from America is the much more fundamental conception

of free speech enshrined in the First Amendment, or at least the last 50 years of judicial interpretation of it.

That's why I thought it would be particularly interesting to speak to one of the most prominent defenders of free speech,

who also, as it happens, has roots in Europe.

Jacob M. Changama is the founder and executive director of a future of free speech project at Vanderbilt University. He is the author of a great book called Free Speech, A History from Socrates to Social Media.

And like me, he understands very well the debates about free speech,

both in Europe and the United States.

And so what we talked about is the different traditions of free speech

in its democratic and elitist variants going back to ancient Athens.

We discussed whether recent criticisms of European speech laws, including by Vice President J.D. Vans, have a basis in reality to, in what ways European laws about speech really are too restrictive.

We also, however, discussed the ways in which we might be concerned about some developments in the United States,

including those advanced by the administration of which JD- Vance is a part, including some of the

measures that the Trump administration has been taken so far. In the rest of this conversation,

...