I'm Alan Alder, and this is clear and vivid conversations about connecting and communicating.

We have been making a huge mistake when we're studying consciousness and trying to figure out what consciousness

is just by looking at humans and macaque monkeys, because we're looking at really complex

beings. But if you are looking for consciousness in a nematode worm, and they have 310 or so neurons,

it might be a lot easier. So I've been encouraging people who have

nematode worms in their labs to start studying consciousness in these animals. Let's study

consciousness there. That's Christian Andrews. She's a philosopher and a champion of the radical

idea that many more creatures are conscious

than we give them credit for, even the humble nematode worm.

If it's true, we may have to rethink our relationship with the rest of the animal kingdom

and not just those we love like our household pets, but also those we casually kill and those we eat.

I'm really interested in this subject, and I assume most people are who've had any contact

with another animal. The idea that other animals have consciousness, maybe not exactly the

same way we do, but that they their conscious is really tantalizing.

And recently you got together with a group of philosophers and cognitive scientists like you

to sign a declaration that an enormous number are conscious.

How far ranging does it go?

Right, yeah.

So today we think that there's really strong evidence of

consciousness in all mammals, all vertebrates, all fish, birds, reptiles, and amphibians, right? So all

vertebrates. And we also think that there's a really realistic possibility of consciousness in invertebrate animals too. So this is kind of the new

discoveries that have just been coming out, consciousness in bees and in octopuses and crabs.

...