The following podcast contains advertising.

To access an ad-free version of the Lawfare podcast, become a material supporter of Lawfare at

patreon.com slash lawfare. That's patreon.com slash lawfare.

Also, check out Lawfare's other podcast offerings rational security chatter lawfare no bull and the

aftermath hi i'm pandora morris and this is hurt to healing a podcast that dives deep into the real, raw and often messy side of mental health.

Each episode, I sit down with thought-provoking guests who share honest stories, hard-earned insights and the tools that help them heal.

If you're searching for connection, clarity, or simply a reminder that you're not alone, you're in the right place.

This is where healing begins.

Subscribe to Hurt to Healing Now to never miss an episode.

The problem is that for decades, government outsourced its mission.

And when you outsource your mission, that's when you're in trouble. Because not only do you not have inside capacity to understand if the vendors are telling you

that you're on the right track or what your actual problem is.

You need people inside to understand your actual problem, what users actually need, and what's

going to fix it, then you go ask for that.

It's the Lawfare podcast. I'm Kevin Frazier, the AI Innovation and Law Fellow at Texas

Law and a contributing editor at Lawfare. joined by Hilary Hartley, the former chief digital officer

of Ontario and former co-founder and deputy executive director at 18F, and David Eves, Associate Professor of Digital Government and Co-Deputy Director of the Institute for Innovation and Public Purpose at University College London.

Not everybody wanted them to come, not everybody asked, but the places

that did ask knew that they needed to figure something out and do something differently.

They went where there were coalitions of the willing that wanted to change.

Today we're talking about 18F, the now defunct digital services team that was tasked with

updating and enhancing government

...