Welcome listeners to the editor's desk, a regular podcast of First Things magazine.

And I'm Rusty Reno, a host, editor of First Things, and I have with

me Michael Duran, author of really one of a marvelous piece. It originated as a lecture that he gave

four First Things in Washington, D.C. in March of 2018, it was published in the May

issue of first things. The theology, not the philosophy, but the theology of foreign policy.

And Mike Duran is a foreign policy expert, and he is at the Hudson Institute in Washington, D.C.

has held a number of different positions in government.

And welcome to the podcast, Mike.

Great to be here, Rusty. What a pleasure.

You know, you say that the opening line, your piece, on matters of foreign

policy, Americans are divided into two hidden camps. And you say it's not what people expect,

Republicans, Democrats, that's not exactly hidden.

Liberals conservative, again, not hidden.

Or for that matter, sort of technical ways that they parcel out foreign policy views.

But rather, what is the hidden divide?

The hidden divide is between the people who divide the world into two categories and those who don't.

Okay.

I always, I'm a great believer in simple binaries.

Don't make it too complex.

The people who think that the world is divided between the saved and the damned,

and those who think, well, it all depends on how well we manage things.

That's it right there.

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