Ross Douthat on Trump, Mysticism and Psychedelics

The Ezra Klein Show

New York Times Opinion

Society & Culture, Government, News

4.6 • 11K Ratings

🗓️ 25 April 2025

⏱️ 95 minutes

🔗️ Recording | iTunes | RSS

🧾️ Download transcript

Summary

I have no earthly idea how to describe this conversation. It’s about religion and belief – at this moment in our politics, and in our lives more generally. My guest and I come from very different perspectives. Ross Douthat is a Catholic conservative, who wrote a book called “Believe: Why Everyone Should Be Religious.” I’m a … Californian. But I think everyone would enjoy this conversation — believers, skeptics and seekers alike. Some questions touched on: Is the Trump administration Christian or pagan? How do Christian Trump supporters reconcile the cruelties of this administration with their faith? Can religious experiences be explained by misfiring neurons? Should organized religions embrace psychedelics? Can mystery provide more comfort than certainty? And if you do enjoy this episode, be sure to check out Douthat’s new New York Times Opinion Audio show “Interesting Times,” available wherever you get your podcasts, and on YouTube. Mentioned: Interesting Times with Ross Douthat “Donald Trump, Man of Destiny” by Ross Douthat Living with a Wild God by Barbara Ehrenreich Book Recommendations: Modern Physics and Ancient Faith by Stephen Barr After by Bruce Greyson Mind and Cosmos by Thomas Nagel Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at [email protected]. You can find the transcript and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Elias Isquith. Fact-checking by Kate Sinclair and Mary Marge Locker. Mixing by Isaac Jones, with Aman Sahota and Efim Shapiro. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Marie Cascione, Annie Galvin, Rollin Hu, Marina King, Jan Kobal, Kristin Lin and Jack McCordick. Original music by Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser.

Transcript

Click on a timestamp to play from that location

0:00.0	The
0:07.0	The I always enjoy conversations that I have no earthly idea how to describe.
0:36.7	And today's is very much in that vein. My guest is
0:41.1	my colleague Ross Douthith. He's the author of Believe, why everyone should be religious, a book I
0:45.9	enjoyed very much, even though quite a bit of it I had some questions about. And he's the host of
0:51.1	the new and really excellent New York Times opinion podcast, Interesting Times, where he has been interviewing people on the modern American right.
0:59.3	This is a conversation about mysticism and the role it is playing in the Trump administration and this era in politics and belief.
1:07.7	And the role plays in society in our lives, Ross's argument for why I should be more religious and you should be too.
1:14.8	And it also gets into some things I did not expect to be talking about today on the show.
1:21.1	Just a note before we get into the conversation here, this was recorded on Monday, April 14th.
1:26.0	That was the day of the Trump-Bukle meeting, so that's not going to be discussed in here,
1:29.9	and also before the death of Pope Francis.
1:32.5	So we also were not able to talk about that here.
1:35.1	The conversation, as you'll hear, I think, stands on its own.
1:38.0	But because those things might have fit into places I wanted to mention, why you won't hear them.
1:49.7	Ross Dathet, welcome to the show.
1:52.0	Ezra Klein, it is a pleasure to be here.
1:57.1	So last year, after the first assassination attempt on Donald Trump, you wrote about Trump as a man of destiny that he was, quote, a figure touched by the gods of fortune
2:02.4	in a way that transcends the normal rules of politics. How are you thinking about that now?
2:08.2	Well, there were other passages in that column that are worth emphasizing. But yeah, I stand by
2:13.1	that reading of the Trump phenomenon. I think one of the ways in which my sense of politics
2:21.2	generally has changed over the course of the Trump era is just I have more appreciation for
	...

Transcript will be available on the free plan in 25 days. Upgrade to see the full transcript now.

Previous episode

Disclaimer: The podcast and artwork embedded on this page are from New York Times Opinion, and are the property of its owner and not affiliated with or endorsed by Tapesearch.

Generated transcripts are the property of New York Times Opinion and are distributed freely under the Fair Use doctrine. Transcripts generated by Tapesearch are not guaranteed to be accurate.