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The Ezra Klein Show

The Very American Roots of Trumpism

The Ezra Klein Show

New York Times Opinion

Society & Culture, Government, News

4.611K Ratings

🗓️ 23 April 2025

⏱️ 74 minutes

🧾️ Download transcript

Summary

After last week’s episode, “The Emergency Is Here,” we got a lot of emails. And the most common reply was: You really think we’ll have midterm elections in 2026? Isn’t that naïve? I think we will have midterms. But one reason I think so many people are skeptical of that is they’re working with comparisons to other places: Mussolini’s Italy, Putin’s Russia, Pinochet’s Chile. But we don’t need to look abroad for parallels; it has happened here. Steven Hahn is a Pulitzer Prize-winning historian at New York University and the author of “Illiberal America: A History.” In this conversation, he walks me through some of the most illiberal periods in American history: Andrew Jackson’s Indian Removal Act of 1830, Jim Crow, the Red Scare, Japanese American internment, Operation Wetback. And we discuss how this legacy can help us better understand what’s happening right now. This episode contains strong language. Book Recommendations: Democracy in America by Alexis de Tocqueville From the War on Poverty to the War on Crime by Elizabeth Hinton Troubled Memory by Lawrence N. Powell Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at [email protected]. You can find the transcript and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Jack McCordick, Annie Galvin and Elias Isquith. Fact-checking by Kate Sinclair, Mary Marge Locker and Michelle Harris. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota and Isaac Jones. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Marie Cascione, Rollin Hu, Marina King, Jan Kobal and Kristin Lin. Original music by Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser.

Transcript

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0:00.0

From New York Times opinion, this is the Ezra Klein Show. A number of people I respect and often agree with have been making different versions of the same point.

0:37.8

Immigration is one of Trump's best issues and one of the worst issues for Democrats.

0:42.5

The economy is where Trump is now weak.

0:45.0

So if you really care about the dangers Donald Trump poses, you need to beat him.

0:49.1

And that means focusing the country's attention on his worst issues, the places where he is most beatable.

0:54.8

Nate Silver, submit aversion his argument, and so did California Governor Gavin Newsom.

1:01.2

Yeah, it's a, you know, this is the distraction of the day, the art of distraction.

1:07.8

Don't get distracted by distractions we say, and here we zig and zag.

1:12.9

This is the debate they want. This is their 80, 20 issue, as they've described it.

1:19.3

And I want to give this argument, it's due. It's not without merit.

1:22.8

Optimal political strategy is usually to keep the focus on your opponent's worst issues.

1:29.0

For Donald Trump right now,

1:35.1

it's his decision to light the global economy on fire. From that perspective, focusing on Abrago-Garcia is a distraction. Trump's meeting with President Buchele is a distraction. And getting distracted

1:40.6

is bad politics. Focus on the tariffs. Focus on the stock market chaos. Focus.

1:48.6

But I think there are two things wrong with this. One is that the polling here isn't clear. Yes,

1:53.7

Democrats have become afraid on the issue of immigration. They see that as a winner for Donald Trump.

1:58.5

But if you look at the polling on rule of law on due process,

2:01.5

to the extent this is framed that way, which it should be, that's actually what this is about,

2:06.9

then Democrats are in a much better position. People do not want the Trump administration

2:12.0

to be able to randomly disappear people living in this country without due process.

2:20.5

But I think this argument reflects a generalized collapse of roles and time across the political system. If this was October

2:26.5

26 and you're running a congressional campaign, then what you focus on is a hard question,

...

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