James Hankins is Professor of History at Harvard University, which is located somewhere in New England, Massachusetts,

I think. He's the author of virtue politics, soul craft and statecraft in Renaissance Italy.

He's the editor of the Oxford Companion to Renaissance Philosophy. His new book is

political meritocracy in Renaissance Italy, the virtuous Republic of Francesco Patrizzi

of Siena.

That is our topic today.

Welcome, Professor Hankins.

Thank you for having me on the podcast, Mark.

This book is about someone whom you believe is, quote, the most substantial and influential voice

in Italian humanist political thought between Petrarch and Machiavelli.

Okay, so first, as a general outline, just tell us who he was.

I mean, I'm familiar with a lot of the people you discuss in the book,

but I haven't read any of, I didn't read any of Patrice in my, in my,

my literary theory studies classes, even though they went back, even though they did go back

through some of the Renaissance humanists. So who was he?

All right. So one of the important parts of the book is to take someone

who is unknown, and you are not alone, never having heard of Patriczi, and to make him into someone

who is part of our political tradition. So who Patrice was, he was a,

he was a member of the C&E's aristocracy. He was someone who held office, many higher offices

in Machiavelli ever did. He was exiled in a populist revolution. He was impoverished, separated from his family, and then he had the great good luck in his life of his close friend, Picolominy, and Nehachchidtzi of Piccolominy, becoming Pope.

He became Pope Issa 2nd, famous humanist pope.

And then things were golden.

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