Gavin Ortland is president of Truth Unites and theologian in residence at Emmanuel

Nashville in Tennessee. His books include Anselm's Pursuit of Joy and Why God

Makes Sense in a World that Doesn't. I like that title. And a new book, what it means to be

Protestant, the case for an always reforming church. That's our topic today. Welcome, Dr. Ortland.

Hey, great to be with you, Mark. Thanks for having me.

Jumping right in, you refer to something afflicting many Christians today, which you call

ecclesial angst. What is that difficulty? Well, this is something that I've just begun to

observe more and more, especially

among younger people.

Basically, it's the fear of being in the wrong church.

A lot of our friends have heard the claims of some of the more what I sometimes call

the ecclesialist traditions, those traditions of Christianity that claim to be the one true church

represented by one institutional hierarchy.

And they are basically concerned they're not a Christian if they're not in the one true

church.

Or it could be a milder concern that they don't have access to the sacraments.

They're missing the fullness of the faith.

This is not something I necessarily saw as much when I was growing up, but for whatever reason, it's huge right now. And there's a lot of apologetics done on behalf of Eastern Orthodoxy, Roman Catholicism. I think a lot of Protestants have grown up, maybe seeing a little bit more of a shallow expression of theology, liturgy, the sacraments.

They maybe haven't seen a robust Protestantism.

And so sometimes they can be drawn out of Protestantism altogether by these claims,

or they're living in this state of angst.

And a lot of what I'm trying to do, both on YouTube, and in this book, what it means to be

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