From the New York Times, this is the interview.

I'm Lulu Garcia Navarro.

Last weekend, governors from both parties converged in Washington for their annual gathering.

As is traditional, they met with the president as a group.

As is not so traditional, President Trump took the opportunity to scold Maine's Democratic governor, Janet Mills, over her opposition to his executive order, banning transgender women from women's sports.

Are you not going to comply with it?

I'm complying with state federal law.

Well, we are the federal law. Well, you better do it. You better do it because you're not going to...

It was a pretty stunning exchange.

You better comply because otherwise you're not getting any federal funding.

Every state, good, I'll see you in court. I look forward to that.

That should be a real easy one.

That interaction is one example of the increasingly antagonistic relationship between the president and Democratic governors.

This time around, Trump is adopting a more punitive posture towards those he perceives as defying him.

And liberal governors now have to decide how to respond.

Among them, Maura Healy of Massachusetts.

Healy is a former civil rights lawyer who, in 2014, became the nation's first openly gay state attorney general.

In 2022, she won the governorship. And while she may not have the same national profile as some of her colleagues, like J.B. Pritzker of Illinois or Josh

Shapiro, Pennsylvania, she's known as being deeply influential in the party behind closed doors.

So as part of a series of conversations I'm having with Democrats, I wanted to talk

to Healy about how she views her role as the governor of a blue state in this second Trump term

and how she thinks her party can wage an effective fight. Here's my conversation with Massachusetts

...