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The Ezra Klein Show

What if Trump Just Ignores the Courts?

The Ezra Klein Show

New York Times Opinion

Society & Culture, Government, News

4.611K Ratings

🗓️ 11 February 2025

⏱️ 95 minutes

🧾️ Download transcript

Summary

We are moving into the next phase of Donald Trump’s presidency. Phase 1 was the blitz of executive actions. Now comes the response from the other parts of the government — namely, the courts. A slew of judges, some of them Republican appointees, have frozen a number of the administration’s most aggressive actions: the destruction of U.S.A.I.D., the spending freeze, DOGE’s access to the Treasury payments system and the executive order to end birthright citizenship, to name just a few. The administration has largely — though not entirely — been abiding by these court decisions. Over the weekend, Vice President JD Vance suggested it might stop. “Judges aren’t allowed to control the executive’s legitimate power,” he posted. Down that path lies a true constitutional crisis. So what happens if the Trump administration simply tells the courts to shove it? And what other pushback and opposition is the administration beginning to face across the government? Quinta Jurecic, a senior editor at Lawfare, joins me to talk it through. Mentioned: “The Situation: What’s Going on at the FBI?” by Benjamin Wittes Book Recommendations: A Survivor’s Education by Joy Neumeyer The Rebel by Albert Camus Race and Reunion by David W. Blight Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at [email protected]. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs. This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Rollin Hu. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Kate Sinclair. Mixing by Isaac Jones, with Efim Shapiro and Aman Sahota. Our supervising editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Elias Isquith, Kristin Lin and Jack McCordick. Original music by Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser.

Transcript

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0:00.0

I will say, I feel like it's always a bad sign when I'm reading Lawfare a lot.

0:06.2

We joked last time around that our motto was, we'll tell you when to panic.

0:11.4

Sure.

0:13.0

Have you told us to panic?

0:14.8

I feel like we're getting there, you know?

0:18.2

Threat level orange.

0:19.4

Yeah, yeah, let's go with that.

0:46.4

Okay. getting there, you know. Threat level orange. Yeah, yeah, let's go with that. I think we're beginning to move into the next phase of this Donald Trump term.

0:52.3

Remember what Yuval Levin said in our episode last week. There's a rhythm to the presidency.

0:55.7

Presidents begin their terms by unleashing their plans.

1:01.2

For weeks and maybe months, the world is responding to them. They set the pace of events.

1:07.1

But soon, because they have exhausted what they can do unilaterally, or because they begin facing events and actors they do not control, or because of the very things they have done

1:12.0

begin creating uncontrollable backlash. They must begin responding to the world. Donald Trump's

1:18.9

second term began at, remember Steve Vannan's term here, muzzle velocity. They acted, and the world

1:25.4

watched its mouth agape. But actions create reactions, and we're beginning to see them,

1:30.4

and to see how the Trump administration responds to those reactions.

1:34.1

Trump delayed his tariffs after markets shuddered.

1:36.7

So far, we are not seeing mass deportations.

1:38.8

We're seeing immigration arrests running at roughly Obama-era levels,

1:42.0

but being marketed and conducted with a gleeful cruelty.

1:45.7

And we are now seeing the courts respond.

1:48.7

Tonight, a federal judge temporarily blocking President Donald Trump's executive order ending

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