From New York Times, I'm Michael Bavarro.

This is the Daily.

Five years ago, at the urging of federal officials, much of the United States locked down to stop the spread of COVID, a decision

that over time polarized the country and changed the relationship between many Americans and

their government. Now, two prominent political scientists are making the case that there's no clear evidence that those

lockdowns saved lives, and that it's time for a national reckoning about the decision-making

that led to those lockdowns in the first place. Today, my conversation with Stephen Mascito and Francis Lee about their new book in COVID's wake

and what they say will be required for a better outcome when the next pandemic strikes.

It's Thursday, March 20th.

Just to start, can I call you by your first names?

Should I call you by your professional time?

Is it okay to call you Steve and Francis?

Yes.

Absolutely, please.

Of course, now that I've called you by those names, I've pressured you into the informality.

Not at all.

We're actually not a show that often speaks to academics if you listen to the daily,

and that's nothing against academics.

We usually talk to our colleagues, but you have produced a body of work here that feels important

and it feels unique.

You're both tenured professors at Princeton University.

Steve, you spent a lot of your career researching democracy.

...