Listen, Learn & Love Hosted by Richard Ostler

My friend Leon Crandell (lives in Snowflake AZ, cosmetologist, Brazil RM) joins us to bravely share his story: Survivor of sexual abuse Turning to substance abuse to deal with/escape the shame of sexual abuse Later abused by a doctor on his mission—and the shame of wondering why me Concluding being a victim of sexual abuse isn’t why he is gay Getting married (married for 27 years) and not really addressing his sexual orientation Gradually opening up to his wife—and their road to stay in their marriage and the Church Finding community of others walking this road Asking Heavenly Father “What do you think of me”? Super helpful Powerful (and healing) experience in a conversation with Jesus Kurt Francom’s impactful book “Is God Disappointed in Me” Hope instead of shame/fear This is a super powerful, vulnerable, and insightful podcast to help listeners see the role of Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ to help us find more hope/peace in our lives—and how our unique differences help us reach others—helping to create Zion. You are super brave Leon. Your courage to be honest gives hope to others. You are a good man! Honored to have you on the podcast. Links: Leon’s podcast: podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/coming-untwo-christ/id1752406845 Leon’s webpage: cominguntwochrist.com/ Leon on Facebook: www.facebook.com/leon.crandell Leon on Instagram: @cominguntwochrist Kurt Francom’s book: www.amazon.com/dp/B0CT67RS86 Dr Robinson: www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9jO9iMbm5U

Transcribed - Published: 20 April 2025

My friend Darice (married mother of four including a transgender daughter, Gather Conference Director) joins us to share her story including: Proximity to LGBTQ people—seeing their goodness/gifts/kindness Being uncomfortable with the 2015 policy statements—"didn’t align with my spiritual integrity” Being called as Stake Relief Society President and her work to help everyone feel loved and that they belong—including having a Stake inclusion specialist Supporting her transgender daughter and her upcoming marriage to her non-binary partner Living in “complexity” and how that gives her more perspective/tools to help others Getting involved with Gather Upcoming Gather Conference on June 27-28, 2025 Thank you, Darice, for your work to bless so many lives. I encourage everyone to listen to Darice’s story and attend Gather. Thank you for all your work (and many others with Gather) to build Zion and help everyone feel loved and welcome. Links: Gather Conference: thegatherconference.regfox.com/gather-conference-worldwide-2025 Gather Conference Registration: thegatherconference.regfox.com/gather-conference-worldwide-2025 Lift and Love Support Groups: www.liftandlove.org/meeting Darice on Instagram: @dariceauston

Transcribed - Published: 16 April 2025

My friend Helen Anderson (Lives in Utah County, BYU Grad, Mother of 4, LGBTQ Ally) joins us to share her story: · Exposure to gay people in the 70’s and 80’s—becoming supportive · Carol Lynn Pearson’s book · Documentary called “TransMormon” and how it helped prepare her · Journey to love, see, understand, and accept her transgender daughter · Pronouns · OK to cry · High school graduation (great experience) · University of Utah welcome/housing (great experience) · Have a transgender/non-binary child is not a sad tragedy—but can become a beautiful family love story Helen also talks about her new variety show called “Dear Mom: Celebrating Mothers of LGBTQIA+ Children” on May 10th (see show notes for more information). Thank you, Helen, for your courage to come on the podcast and share your beautiful family love story. I’m grateful for your voice and experiences to help us better support the transgender people in our lives—for they are wonderful. Links: Variety Show on May 10th, 2025: https://www.werehereutah.com/dearmom Helen on Instagram: @helenandersoncomedy

Transcribed - Published: 12 April 2025

*** This episode talks about suicide. If you are suicidal, please call/text/chat *988 *** My friend Lucas Batista (grew up in Brazil, lived in Spain, RM/Chile) joins us to share his story including: 1) Growing up knowing he was like his gay mom (and all the negative comments about gay people) 2) Shame and “always wearing a mask” 3) Temple helping him feel less shame—never felt rejected by God 4) Great mission experience in Chile—came out to both Mission Presidents 5) Suicidal ideation after his mission—role of friends to give hope—including one who said “It’s OK—I will be with you to the end” 6) Letter to “future me” 7) Not broken, coming on the podcast to reduce shame and give others hope Thank you, Lucas, for your courage to come on the podcast and share your unique story. You are super brave. You story will help others to feel less shame, more acceptance, and hope for the future. You are a good man who has bless many lives. Our church and world are a better place with Lucas Batista part of it! Links: Lucas on Instagram: @luccabattistta Lucas on Facebook: facebook.com/lucas.silvabatista.14 Facebook Group to support LGBTQ Latter-day Saints: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1433556613672143

Transcribed - Published: 9 April 2025

My friend Lyric Kinard (lives in Raleigh, married mother of 5 including queer kids, active Latter-day Saint) joins us to share her story around creating support groups and an invitation to attend Gather Southeast (in Raleigh, NC) on Sept 20, 2025). Lyric talks about: Principles for starting a support group Engaging local leaders Importance of speaking up and having a second witness Creating safe spaces at church Gather Southeast Why she wears her transgender scarf to Church Being like Jesus Thank you, Lyric, for being on the podcast and all your work (along with many others in your area) to help LGBTQ Latter-day Saints feel more welcome, loved and needed. It is people like you that give me hope. You are making a huge difference for good. Links: Gather Southeast: www.gathersoutheast.com/ Gather Southeast Newsletter: www.gathersoutheast.com/f/gather-se-newsletter Gather Southeast Instagram: www.instagram.com/gather_southeast/ Gather Southeast Facebook: www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61563441041765 Lyric’s e-mail: [email protected] Resource Files at “Supporting LGBTQ Latter-day Saints”: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1433556613672143

Transcribed - Published: 2 April 2025

My friend McKay Mayes (from Wyoming, London South RM, Age 29, Lives/Works in Utah County) joins us to share his story including: Always believing/hoping he would be fixed and be straight Great mission experience—but still gay Not fitting the typical gay stereotype Dating and trying to make it work with a woman—wanted to follow God’s plan—super painful not finding a way to make that possible Feeling “left behind” as straight friends got married For six years, committed to being single in line with the Church’s celibate guidance—leading to the darkest/most painful moments of McKay’s life New prayers (instead of “fix me”) Finding hope, acceptance of being gay, and purpose in his new path Relationship with the Church and hopes for changes First coming out experience (super helpful) I continue to be amazed by the brave/mature/thoughtful people who share their stories on the podcast—with McKay joining that group—and his desire to give hope to others walking a similar road. Thank you, McKay, for all you have done to bless/help the lives of others (mission, EFY counselor, etc) and continue to do so with your courage to be out/honest and be on the podcast to give hope to others. You are a good man with a great life ahead of you! Links: McKay on Instagram: @mckay_mayes McKay on Facebook: www.facebook.com/mckay.mayes.7 Obsolete vs current teachings: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/mxcr5fo9rxl29by4wvc9q/Obsolete-and-Current-Teachings-LGBTQ.docx?rlkey=e1dbc3iffua4nwwscpg911uzw&dl=0

Transcribed - Published: 29 March 2025

My friend Barbara Higinbotham (married mother of 5 living children including a non-binary child, transgender daughter, and gay son; early 60s; recently returned in early 2025 from serving a senior mission with her husband Dan). Barbara shares: Assumptions should be challenged, being uncomfortable leads to growth Being LGBTQ doesn’t make someone a predator Why she chooses to honor the new names (Ben and Heather) and her non-binary child and transgender daughter including updated Christmas stockings Focus on the temple (current temple workers) and our Savior to find revelation, hope, and peace—and anchoring in the gospel of Jesus Christ. Trusting/believing her children We are not better church members by distancing ourselves from the LGBTQ people in our lives Processing unkind comments in Church and on social media Managing grief with changing expectations Thank you, Barbara, for being on the podcast. I wish I could have listened to you 10-20 years ago—your insights would have helped to be a better disciple of Christ. I encourage everyone to listen/share this episode, as we work to “hasting the work” by “gathering Isreal”—which includes our LGBTQ friend, family and church members. Links: Barbara on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/barbara.morrellhiginbotham

Transcribed - Published: 23 March 2025

My friend my friend Cort Watson (construction management major/BYI-Idaho, from Tremonton, Arcadia CA RM, former FSY counselor) joins us to bravely share his story including: Navigating feeling different, not sure believed in Church, deciding to serve a mission Coming out first to his junior companion and then his Mission President (both good experiences) Processing pain (and subsequent anger to God) about being gay Deep spiritual experiences (and role of the temple) to “thank God for making me this way” Being gay is part of the God’s plan for me and not a punishment Come out on social media in 2024 to help others Being laser focus on Christ to provide hope, help and healing Role of the temple to feel God’s love and direction Life at BYI-Idaho as a gay student (positive experience) Thank you, Cort, for your courage to share your story with others. Your courage/vulnerability helps others that they too are loved by God and needed in our church community. Thanks for helping us build Zion. You are a good man. Links: Cort on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/cortland.watson.96 Cort on Instagram: @wat.cort_ Cort’s e-mail: [email protected]

Transcribed - Published: 17 March 2025

My friend Eric Hales (a highly recommended therapist, gay, mid-30s, former Latter-day Saint, licensed in Utah, Idaho, Nevada, and Virginia) joins us to talk about his work supporting the queer and Latter-day Saint community. Eric starts by sharing some of his story and then talks about key concepts that promote healing, including: Creating safety Healing from wounds Self-compassion Addressing shame-based trauma and C-PTSD What to look for in a therapist Understanding and addressing numbing behaviors This is one of the finest and most insightful podcasts we’ve done with a therapist. I learned so much from Eric. If you want to better understand how a therapist can help you (or others), want better tools to support others, or are queer and looking for more hope, self-love, and healing, please listen to Eric’s podcast and share it with others. This is the kind of episode I wish I had heard before becoming a parent and a local church leader. When we know better, we do better. Thank you, Eric, for being on the podcast and for your work to help others find hope, healing, and peace. Your work is so needed in our community. Links: Eric’s e-mail: [email protected] Eric’s practice: https://meetmonarch.com/therapist/eric-jeffrey-hales-lcsw-murray-ut More about Eric: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/therapists/eric-hales-murray-ut/936761

Transcribed - Published: 12 March 2025

My friend Kelsey Wells (RM, from Idaho, lives in Utah County, former EFY counselor and seminary teacher, active in her ward) joins us to bravely share her story. Kelsey starts with coming out to her mother (senior year of high school) and the good/difficult experiences—including how not talking about it brings shame. Kelsey talks about wanting to service a mission but putting that on pause because she realized she was not doing that for the right reasons. Kelsey shares what changed and how she ended up serving. Kelsey bravely talks about getting engaged to a man and how that engagement ended a few weeks before the wedding. Kelsey talks about ignoring red flags because of her desire to get married and have a family. Kelsey talks about being in the Temple and a sealer sharing some thoughts that gave her clarity and courage to end the engagement. Kelsey talks about not wanting to be alive—but finding hope in Christ, therapy and the Questions From the Closet podcast. Kelsey also talks about “fear is where Satan thrives”. Kelsey talks about why she stays a member of the Church, joy in being a EFY councilor and teaching seminary, and helping others find hope. Thank you Kelsey for being on the podcast. You are so emotionally and spiritually mature. You are also so brave. You being open helps others walking this road and helps us better create Zion. Links: Instagram: Instagram: @kelswayan Email: [email protected] Current Teaching versus Obsolete Teachings: www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/mxcr5fo9rxl29by4wvc9q/Obsolete-and-Current-Teachings-LGBTQ.docx?rlkey=e1dbc3iffua4nwwscpg911uzw&dl=0

Transcribed - Published: 6 March 2025

My friend Marley Orton (married mother of three, mid-50s, Utah County, real estate broker/hair stylist, RM) joins us to share her story of love and acceptance of her non-binary child CC. Marley starts with the pregnancy of this child knowing it was twins and having that confirmed via ultrasound. However, that changed with “Vanishing Twin Syndrome” where she ended up with one child. Marley talks about CC being sensitive, focused on those left out, sweet and a great sibling to their younger brother Zac. Marley talks about CC coming out as pansexual at age 16 and the body dysphoria they felt and feeling ostracized—especially at church. Marley talks about—with the help of a great therapist—CC understanding the identity that resonated with them: non-binary—and how CC's mental health and hope for the future improved with the process of transitioning. Marley talks about discovering “Chimera Twin Syndrome” and how this could bring a more scientific understanding to CC being non-binary. Marley talks about being the mother of three wonderful children—all whom have stepped away from the church—and what they are doing in their family to stay close together and love each other. Marley talks about how we can improve church culture—including being open to new perspectives so that more feel loved, welcomed, and needed. I learned so much from Marley. If you are open to learning more to support queer Latter-day Saints and improve church culture, I encourage you to listen to Marley’s podcast and share it with others. Thank you, Marley, for being on the podcast! And thank you CC for the great person you are and allowing your story to be shared. Links: E-mail: [email protected]. Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/marley.orton Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/marley.orton/

Transcribed - Published: 27 February 2025

My friend Matt Higinbotham (RM from Tempe Arizona, returned Feb 2024, from Utah County, BYU student) joins us to share his story as a gay Latter-day Saint. Matt talks about his early years figuring out his sexuality and his journey to realize (and then accept) he is gay. Matt talks about the role of prayer, scripture study, and temple attendance to help feel God’s love, acceptance, hope for his future and the desire to serve/help others (a big reason he did the podcast). Matt talks about his desire to serve a mission and how that hope eventually became a reality—all while being open with his church leaders about his sexual orientation. Matt talks about the positive and painful experience of being gay and on a mission. Some the negative ones were around gay jokes (missionaries and members) and some of the positive ones were where being open about being gay allowing him to help others know they too could feel God’s love, and acceptance. Matt talks about how navigating a variety of experience (including Church leader talks that were painful), being an EFY counselor (and teaching the Family Proclamation), seeing the Y lit up in pride colors, unfairness (compared to straight members) of being gay (and not having a path to have a marriage and still fully participate in the Church). I learned so much from Matt—a thoughtful, spiritually mature, deeply insightful, and remarkable man. You are a good man Matt with a wonderful future. Thank you for blessing so many people on your mission and doing this podcast which will give others hope—and help us better love and support each other as we build Zion. Links: Matt on Facebook: www.facebook.com/matthew.higinbotham.5 Matt on IG: @matthiggy134 Matt’s e-mail: [email protected]

Transcribed - Published: 19 February 2025

My friend Trevor Schoeny (RM from Lubbock Texas, returned Dec 2024, from Virgina/DC, BYU student, Age 23) joins us to share his story as a gay Latter-day Saint. Trevor starts with realizing he is gay and then coming out to his parents after his senior year (positive experience). Trevor talks about stepping away from the Church (which helped him eventually come back to the Church) and his brave (and somewhat surprising) decision to serve a mission (and walk back into a place of trauma)—because he wanted to help others heal from pain and find love. Trevor (who reads scriptures throughout the podcast) talks about all the things he learned and taught on his mission including: * Fear has no place in the Gospel * His crucible moment when he decided to stay on his mission * No one should feel they are not celestial material * Importance of vulnerability * Finding our story in the scriptures I was so moved listening to and learning from Trevor—a great man who was been through the “winepress” representing the difficult road of a queer Latter-day Saint—and his ability to help others find hope, belonging and peace. You are a man of great courage. You are a good man, Trevor. I’m honored to have you on the podcast. Everyone in the Church needs to hear like Trevor as we build Zion. Please listen and share this episode. Links: Trevor on FB: https://www.facebook.com/trevorschoeny Trevor on IG: https://www.instagram.com/trevorschoeny/ Trevor’s e-mail: [email protected]

Transcribed - Published: 19 February 2025

My friends Jake and Joe Sharp (identical twins, age 24, from Mesa Arizona, RMs) join us to talk about their life work to help others choose to stay, turn to positive coping behaviors, finding hope and the role of the Atonement of Jesus Christ to heal from pain. Jake and Joe start with the story of losing their younger brother Sam to suicide at age 16 while they were on their missions. They talk about the goodness of Sam—as well as the difficult mental health challenges (OCD, toxic perfection, etc) that Sam faced, and all their family was doing to help him find hope. They talk about the heartbreaking pain, anger, and guilt they faced—and how Christ and therapy has helped them heal. They talk about unhealthy coping behaviors to deal with the pain (pornography use and overeating) and how they learned better tools/behaviors helping to be in a better place. They talk about shame and how that is Satan’s greatest tool to separate us from the love of our Heavenly Parents and the Savior—and how shame has no place in the gospel of Jesus Christ. They talk about the importance of vulnerability, therapy, fitness, doing a “forgive fast” for ourselves, we are not broken, and our Savior to give hope/peace. If you are suicidal, Jake and Joe’s story will help you. We all invite you to stay. If you are working through grief of losing someone to suicide, their story will help you. If you are working to solve porn use (or better tools to help others), their story will help you. Thank you, Jake and Joe, for being on the podcast. I learned so much from you. Thank you for your courage to talk about these subjects to give others hope. You are good men doing many hope/healing in our community. Honored to have you on the podcast. Links: Jake and Joe’s Instagram and TikTok: @jdoufit Their Mom’s Podcast (Pam Sharp): https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/fight-hard-love-much/id1615231547

Transcribed - Published: 13 February 2025

My friend Dr. Matthew L Harris (Historian, Colorado State University) joins us to talk about his powerful new book called “Second-Class Saints: Black Mormons and the Struggle for Racial Equality”— a fifteen-year labor of love. In Matt’s book (which was a powerful read for me), he draws on never-before-seen private papers of LDS apostles and church presidents—including Spencer W. Kimball to help us understand the complexity of ending the ban—something that President Kimball considered long before becoming Church President. Matt talks about why the ban started, who started it, how it became official doctrine for decades, and what shifted to cause church leaders to end the ban. Matt also talks about why ending the ban didn’t end racist teachings about black people—how all those prior teachings have now been refuted—but still might exists in our culture. Matt discusses key questions like was the ban doctrine or policy? Was it “just not time yet to end the ban”? And other important questions. Matt also talks about the importance of proximity by senior church leaders to those hurt by the ban and how those stories/experience changed hearts and were key to considering lifting it. Matt also shares insights on possible parallels to the priesthood ban and the experience of LGB Latter-day Saints who may also feel like “second-class saints”. I learned so much from Matt’s book and loved having him on the podcast. I encourage everyone to read his book and then consider what each of us can do to better support those of the margins. Links: Matt’s book at Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/dp/019769571X Matt’s webpage: https://matthewlharris.org/

Transcribed - Published: 7 February 2025

My friend Richard Hanks (mid 60s, retired business executive, active Latter-day Saint/former Mission President) joins us to talk about his biography of his father Elder Marion D. Hanks (beloved general authority—called at age 31—who lived from 1921-2011) in his book called “To Be a Friend of Christ: The Life of Marion D. Hanks.” Richard talks about his father’s unique approach to the gospel and his work—focused on following Christ—advocating for: increasing the church's humanitarian efforts, Christian service by full-time missionaries, acceptance of those on the fringes, the creation of singles wards, combining High Priests and Elders quorums, adapting garments to local climates, civil marriage before sealings, a kinder and more merciful approach to repentance, and a strong/vocal desire to end the priesthood ban—all while being deeply committed to the Church and supportive of its leaders. Richard talks about key areas of his father’s ministry including “aggressive Christianity versus aggressive proselytizing”; “souls versus statistics ”; and “this is the only true church/others are wrong" versus "The more excellent way.” He further talks about his father’s work to focus the mission of the Church on Christ, bring the Christus to Temple Square, teaching faith over dogma and certitudes, and principles to help those with legitimate concerns stay in the Church. I was always aware of and grateful for the ministry of Elder Hanks, but it wasn’t until becoming familiar with Richard’s book about his father, that I realized how unique, progressive, and needed was his ministry in the Church, all he accomplished, and the many lives he blessed being laser focused on helping people "Come unto Christ." If you are looking for hope for the future of the Church and how your contributions are needed, I encourage you to read Richard’s book. Thank you, Richard, for making this book possible, and for your work to create Zion. Links: Richard’s book at Amazon: www.amazon.com/dp/1560854723 Contacting Richard: [email protected]

Transcribed - Published: 2 February 2025

My friend Hailey Kynaston (Anaheim California RM, BYU-I marriage and family studies major, grew up in Davis County) bravely joins us to share her story. Hailey starts with her journey coming to terms with her sexual orientation during her high school years, dating girls secretly, as well as dating boys. Hailey talks about her journey to attend her YSA ward, working to gain a testimony and ultimately serving a successful mission. Hailey talks about the transformative experiences on her mission that helped her develop a deeper relationship with Christ, find more hope/peace, and clarity about her future—including keeping her covenants and hopes to marry a man in the temple. Hailey shares her post-mission coming out post (super powerful—with a focus on her primary identity as a daughter of loving Heavenly Parents—insights about our Savior—and hopes for her future). Hailey talks about the support she feels at North Star and its upcoming conference (Feb 27 – March 1st) and the YSA group she is leading. We both invite you to consider attending North Star this year (see show notes for more information). Thank you, Hailey, for being on the podcast and your courage to share your story. You are brave and courageous—and you being open helps so many. Links (feel free to add more): Hailey’s Facebook: www.facebook.com/hailey.kynaston.33 Hailey’s Instagram: @hailey_kyn Hailey’s e-mail: [email protected] North Star Conference: northstarconference.org

Transcribed - Published: 27 January 2025

Clark (mother of 5, lives in Iowa City, Iowa) joins us to share her story of her journey to love, understand, and accept her queer kids—and the blessings of using their preferred pronouns. Candice is open about the sometimes choppy road to using preferred pronouns—but talks about how that brought improved relationships and more love, open communication, and genuine family unity and understanding. She shares ten messages a queer person might hear when we use their pronouns: You know yourself better than I know you. I would rather change the way I speak about you than hurt you repeatedly. Your sense of safety is important to me. Your identity is real and should be acknowledged. I want to teach everyone around me to respect you. Being uncomfortable is fine if I avoid being offensive. I can hear you talking and I am really listening. Being who you truly are is not an inconvenience to me. I would prefer if you kept being honest with me. I am an ally, a friend, and someone you can trust. Candice talks about her journey to encourage extended family to also use preferred pronouns—a journey that has been very difficult at times and required Candice to extend skills of grace, listening, and bridge building. Candice talks about how it is a journey worth undertaking. Candice talks about her podcast “No Empty Chairs: For Moms Whose Kids Don’t Come to Church,” becoming a life coach, and her role in and the purpose of the Facebook group “Bridges: Support for Latter-day Saint Parents of Adult Children”. If you are looking for a real-world story of better supporting the queer people in your life, please listen to Candice’s podcast and connect with her resources. Thank you, Candice, for being on the podcast. You are awesome. Your work is so needed in our community! Links: Candice’s web page: candiceclarkcoaching.com/ Candice’s FB Page: www.facebook.com/candiceclarkcoaching Candice’s Podcast: candiceclarkcoaching.com/?page_id=78 Bridges FB Group: www.facebook.com/groups/1139458306236720 FB Group for LDS Parents with LGBTQ children: www.facebook.com/groups/WalkWithYouLDSParentsOfLGBTQ

Transcribed - Published: 23 January 2025

My friends Emilie Call (married mother of 4) and Ashlie Sanders (married mother of 3) join us to talk about their podcast they founded, and co-host called “That’s Church Podcast” which builds bridges of understanding to other faiths (and people of no faith) and to better support people within our own faith (such as LGBTQ folks). They also share their personal stories navigating complicated topics in our faith and how their work has helped them stay in our Church. Emilie and Ashlie talk about the next event at Compass Gallery in Provo, Utah on March 8th(National Women’s Day)—speakers and purpose-an awesome event that I encourage you to attend. Also, Ashlie talks about the IG account (@the_nuanced_mormon) to explore diverse spiritual journeys. If you are looking for two thoughtful voices in our faith community doing much needed bridge-building work, please listen to this episode and connect with their podcast and consider attending their event on March 8th Thank you, Emilie and Ashlie, for being on the podcast. You two give me hope. Links : That’s Church Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thats-church/id1711856369 That’s Church IG account: @thatschurchpodcast A That’s Church Experience - Divine Feminine & Women Empowerment tickets: tinyurl.com/empower2025

Transcribed - Published: 19 January 2025

My friend Liberty Hansen (age 20, lives in Spanish Fork Utah, Richmond Virginia RM) joins us to share her story of returning home from her mission after two months because of a desire to improve our culture to help others walking this road. Liberty talks about how much she loved missionary work—but suffered from panic attacks and feelings of suicide—and feelings of drowning. She talks about difficult experience on her mission where she didn’t feel safe or supported. An exception to that was one of her companions—still a dear friend—and all this companion did to help her. Liberty talks about coming home and the support she received from her family and ward. She talks about how she handled the airport, her first week back in the Ward, her homecoming talk and the good/not helpful comments. Liberty also talks about why she stays in the church—even though she feels so level of being let down by the Church. Liberty talks about a new Instagram account she started (see show notes) where other early release missionaries share their stories. If you are an early release missionary or working to better support someone walking this road, please listed to Liberty’s story and connect with her Instagram. Thank you, Liberty, for being on the podcast. You are brave. You are awesome. Links: Liberty’s Instagram: @finding.the.purpose

Transcribed - Published: 14 January 2025

My friend Liberty Hansen (age 20, lives in Spanish Fork Utah, Richmond Virginia RM) joins us to share her story of returning home from her mission after two months because of a desire to improve our culture to help others walking this road. Liberty talks about how much she loved missionary work—but suffered from panic attacks and feelings of suicide—and feelings of drowning. She talks about difficult experience on her mission where she didn’t feel safe or supported. An exception to that was one of her companions—still a dear friend—and all this companion did to help her. Liberty talks about coming home and the support she received from her family and ward. She talks about how she handled the airport, her first week back in the Ward, her homecoming talk and the good/not helpful comments. Liberty also talks about why she stays in the church—even though she feels so level of being let down by the Church. Liberty talks about a new Instagram account she started (see show notes) where other early release missionaries share their stories. If you are an early release missionary or working to better support someone walking this road, please listed to Liberty’s story and connect with her Instagram. Thank you, Liberty, for being on the podcast. You are brave. You are awesome. Links: Liberty’s Instagram: @finding.the.purpose

Transcribed - Published: 14 January 2025

My friend Hayden Clark (age 30, married, father of one, lives in Mesa Arizona, former Utah Dixie State University football player, Phoenix firefighter and paramedic, stake high councilor), joins us to share his journey to understand and solve his porn use. Hayden talks about his early exposure to porn (age 7) and how this became a coping mechanism to deal with life. Hayden talks about not opening up to his wife about his porn use before their marriage—but finally having the courage to talk about this once married. Once Hayden opened up to his wife about his porn use, that opened the door to do the needed work to solve it. Hayden talks about therapists (including Sara Brewer’s program) which helped him understand his porn use was really a coping mechanism (or “buffer”) to deal with/escape the challenges of life. With that reframing, Hayden talks about the things he did to improve himself to be closer to sobriety. In addition to good therapy, Hayden also talks about the role of The Atonement of Jesus Christ and how reading the Book of Mormon helped him. Hayden also talks about why his wife and him started a podcast, why he is talking about this at church (including his high council talks)—all because of his desire to help others. If you are working to end porn use (or other unwanted coping behaviors like overeating, drugs/alcohol, caffeine, excessive social media use, etc) please listen to Hayden’s story. It will help you. And if you are looking to help others, Hayden’s story will help you better help others. Thank you, Hayden, for your courage to be on the podcast and share your story. Respect. You are helping so many! Links: Hayden and his wife Dylan‘s podcast called: This Is Livin’ : podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/this-is-livin/id1770163904 Sara Brewer: centerforovercoming.com/ Other Richard Ostler solving porn podcasts: listenlearnandlove.org/solving-porn-use

Transcribed - Published: 9 January 2025

My friends Clint and Melinda Mueller (live in Litchfield Park, Arizona; BYU grads; forensic engineering business owners) join us to share their story of having two gay sons (four sons total, sons #2 and #3 are gay—age 29 and 26 respectively—both returned missionaries). Clint talks about the long road (started in 2016) when their first son came out—and all the changed perspective needed to better support their sons (going from “not on my watch will I have a gay son” to loving/supporting them). Clint talks about deeply spiritual experiences (including talking with other gay people in his life) that helped him do better. Melinda talks about personal revelation including “your job is to love them; my job is to save them.” Clint and Melinda talk about the shock of when their second son came out following his mission—and how they were better equipped to love and support him. Clint also shares what they are doing in their LDS circle to help local leaders/members better support LGBTQ members. If you are an LDS parent new to the road of having a queer child (or be better prepared for this possibility), or a local leader, please listen to the Mueller’s story. It is a powerful story of growth, pain, honest communication, keeping the family circle together, and creating a beautiful family love story. Thank you, Clint and Melinda, for being on the podcast and giving us better tools/gospel insights to support the LGBTQ people in our lives. Links: Clint/Melinda Mueller’s e-mail: [email protected]

Transcribed - Published: 4 January 2025

My friends Dr. Ben Schilaty, Clare Dalton, and Liz Macdonald join us to talk about the rebranding of the powerful podcast “Questions From The Closet” to “All Out in the Open.” They share how the expanded scope includes once-a-month hosts including Iese Wilson focusing on international queer Latter-day Saints, Clare Dalton on how the scriptures provide principles to help queer Latter-day Saints, Liz Macdonald and Michael Soto talking about community building, and Ben Schilaty and Charlie Bird talking about how to be more open with ourselves and others. They also talk about the Gather/All Arizona conference in Mesa (March 29, 2025), the Gatherings monthly scripture curriculum, the annual Gather Conference in Provo (June 26-28, 2025), and a new conference called Belong (a conference for queer youth and youth allies—born out of the successful Gather track at the 2024 conference). If you want to feel hope in the LDS/LGBTQ space, please listen to this episode and (more importantly) listen to “All Out in the Open” podcast. Ben, Clare, and Liz are doing such great work and represent the hundreds of people in this space working to “expand the borders” of Zion where more feel loved, needed, and true belonging. Their principled approach gives us all better ideas on what we can do in our circle of influence to better support queer Latter-day Saints. Thank you, Ben, Clare, Liz for being on the podcast and all your great work! Links: All Out in the Open Podcast: alloutintheopen.org/ Gather curriculum: gather-conference.com/gatherings Gather Arizona March 29, 2025: www.allarizona.org/conferences (registration not live yet) Belong Youth Conference (in connection with Gather): Gather June 26-28, 2025: www.gather-conference.com/ (registration not live yet)

Transcribed - Published: 29 December 2024

My friend Paul Peterson (married father of 3, lives in Arkansas, Master’s in Marriage and Family Therapy from Valdosta State University, owns/runs his own practice) joins us to talk about how we can know we are whole/perfect now and we are always loved by God—and tools to absolutely accept this. Paul talks about how this helps us to “become”—not from a feeling of shame/brokenness—but from a position of strength, fully understanding our identity as a beloved child of God. Paul brings his personal experience, academic training, theological understanding, and professional experience to make this a reality in our lives. I was deeply moved (and calmed) listening to Paul. I encourage everyone to check out this episode and read Paul’s book—I believe it will help you and give you more tools to help others. Thank you, Paul, for being on the podcast and your much needed work in our community. It is good people like you that give me hope. Links: Paul’s website: www.paulwpeterson.com/ Paul’s book: www.amazon.com/dp/B0DN5TY2C4

Transcribed - Published: 24 December 2024

My friend Oakley Roberts (from Payson Utah, RM from Liberia Africa) joins us to share his story. Oakley talks about knowing he was different since age 12, his high school life (including his mantra “if they wanted to be in my life, they were welcome”) and coming out a bisexual over the phone to his sister while on his mission (later coming out as gay to his mother). Oakley talks about the curse/punishment he felt from God for being gay—and the pain/shame of that initial conclusion. Oakley talks about reaching out to people for help and how coming out and being authentic improved his feelings about himself. Oakley talks about the powerful spiritual experience in the canyon east of Cedar City while in college with the personal revelation that Oakley’s sexual orientation (like all of Oakley’s attributes) are divine in nature and Oakley is created as intended—a 180 degree shift from this earlier feelings about being cursed. Oakley talks about his visit with his Bishop (super helpful) and his supportive mother (“I trust you Oakley” and “whoever you bring home, I will accept them”). I am so impressed with Oakley—his spiritual maturity, his emotionally resilience, and his deep acceptance of who he is—all at age 21. You have a great life ahead of you Oakley and you will continue to give hope to others and help them feel God’s love. Honored to have you on the podcast. You are a good man. Links: Gather/Lift and Love: www.liftandlove.org/ FB group to support LGBTQ Latter-day Saints: /www.facebook.com/groups/1433556613672143 Oakley’s Instagram: @_oakleyroberts

Transcribed - Published: 20 December 2024

*** This episode talks about suicide. If you are suicidal, please call/text/chat *988 *** My friend Kyle Dunshee (age 30, married father with new baby, suicide survivor) joins us to share his journey with mental health. Kyle starts with his journey with severe OCD/anxiety which led to a suicide attempt at age 10. Kyle talks about his great parents getting him help—including being institutionalized (helpful experience). Kyle also talks about self-harm and gives insights on why people engage in this behavior and how it is able to put this behind him. Kyle talks a Book of Mormon scripture story that gave him hope and his decision to serve a mission—but the painful/angry experience when he was denied this opportunity. Kyle talks about his pain, anger at the institutional Church, and the deeply spiritual experience in an empty movie theatre watching an R rated movie—a powerful experience where he felt the love of God and a desire to become more active in the Church. Kyle talks about why he decided to resubmit his mission papers and his call to serve in Portland Oregon. Kyle talks about how his mental health is on ongoing part of his life—and why it is (at times) a beautiful struggle. Kyle’s story is in his new book called “At the Bottom of Bountiful” (see show notes). I was so impressed with Kyle’s courage and vulnerability to share his story. It is a powerful story that helps others walking a similar road with mental health issues and those with difficult church experiences who want to stay in the church. I encourage everyone to listen to Kyle’s podcast and read his book so we have more insights to help ourselves and our friends/family working with mental health issues. You are a good man, Kyle. Honored to have you on the podcast. Links: Kyle’s book on Amazon: www.amazon.com/dp/B0DQ8Z9RHH Grandpa Thomas Rogers Obituary: www.legacy.com/us/obituaries/deseretnews/name/thomas-rogers-obituary?id=55427103 Kyra Dunshee Podcast: soundcloud.com/user-818501778/episode-293-krista-mortensen-and-kyra-dunshee-sisters-when-your-child-leaves-the-church

Transcribed - Published: 17 December 2024

My friend long-time friend Dusty Bee (late 30s, RM, father of two sons/divorced, was in a same-sex marriage/excommunicated/now divorced, DJ/business owner, lives in Idaho) joins us to share his unique and powerful story. Dusty talks about knowing he was gay/different around 10, serving a mission (asking God to make him straight), marrying a women (while closeted), marrying to a man (married about 6 years—a marriage Dusty doesn’t regret and into a family he loves), being excommunicated (very painful experience), and then his decision (with a powerful spiritual experience on the Rome temple grounds) to get rebaptized (working with the same Stake President and their reconciliation after the difficult excommunication). Yes, Dusty is still gay—and talks about how he accepts/love himself, why he believes in the Church, how we can better support LGBTQ members, and the character of our Heavenly Parents—including Their deep love for ALL Their children. Dusty is not asking couples in same-sex marriages to follow his path—but rather the importance of helping LGBTQ members to write their own story (without agenda) and walking with them—leaving all judgement to our Savior. Dusty is one of the finest people I know. He has done a great job walking a nearly impossible road and his story helps other queer Latter-day Saints to find hope/perspective in their future—and parents/allies/local church leaders looking for insights on how to better love, understand, and support. I’m honored to have Dusty on the podcast. I encourage everyone to listen to and share his story and we work to expand the borders of Zion so more feel welcome and a deep feeling of belonging—as I believe we are a better people with our LGBTQ members with us.

Transcribed - Published: 12 December 2024

Episode 797: Dr. Daniel Parkinson, Mentor to LDS Parents with LGBTQ Kids, New Book by Richard Ostler

Transcribed - Published: 8 December 2024

My friend Nathan Kitchen (father of five, RM, dentist, mid-50s, in a same-sex marriage, author, powerful/thoughtful/mature voice in the queer LDS space) joins us to share some of this story and talk about his new book called “The Boughs of Love: Navigating the Queer Latter-day Saint Experience During an Ongoing Restoration.” Nathan talks about some of his personal story (including following church leader counsel as a gay Latter-day Saint young man to marry a woman) and how that marriage eventually ended. Nathan—who holds a deep belief in our Heavenly Parents—talks about scripture stories and gospel principles he used to navigate his life and how those apply to helping younger queer Latter-day Saints write their own story from a queer centric/Christ centered perspective. Nathan talks about why he wrote the book (“to cast hope”) to help queer Latter-day Saints and allies. Nathan also talks about the role of Affirmation and its worldwide efforts to help queer Latter-day Saints find their joy in the places that feel safe and healthy for them. Nathan also addresses other topics like the 2019 reversal of the November 2015 policy statements, cautions about gaslighting, how to heal/move on from pain/anger towards the Church, and offers advice for new allies. Thank you, Nathan, for being on the podcast and for your mature/thoughtful voice. I continue to learn from you. Thanks for all you are doing to bring us together as a part of the same human family. Nathan’s book at Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1961471159 Nathan’s book a BCC Press in their catalogue section: https://www.bccpress.org Affirmation: affirmation.org

Transcribed - Published: 5 December 2024

My friend Tyler Bastian joins us to talk about Roots High School (located on a 5-acre farm)—a charter school for students who need a different experience—and may have fallen through the cracks. Tyler talks about why he started the school in 2015, its focus, their mission statement around “we love you”, and what they are doing in a unique and powerful way to help each student feel purpose and belonging. Tyler also talks about the role of farm animals in the education process, how it helps individual students, and how the farm environment brings down potential barriers between groups. Tyler also talks about we love others “not by words—but how we treat them”. Tyler also shares career advice for those who may not feel comfortable in a more traditional career path—by sharing his own story find his way to start a chapter school. Thank you, Tyler, for being on the podcast and all you are doing to give student more hope, purpose, and a feeling of belonging. I’m grateful for your work—and everyone at Roots High School—and honored to have you on the podcast. Root High School: https://www.rootshigh.org/ "Everything is Incredible" https://youtu.be/oqZ56-RMbNc?si=lkoMVhvGYvMbN29L "When I Need a Friend" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgkE23j_8Ss

Transcribed - Published: 2 December 2024

My friend Emma Westwood (married mother of 5, nurse at Primary Children's Hospital, Latter-day Saint) joins us to talk about her gay little brother Collin Russell who died of an accidental overdose at the age of 23 in 2018. Emma talks about Collin coming out to her while a junior in high school and the difficult road he faced full of shame—which led to addictions to cope with the pain/shame—which led to his death by an accidental overdose on December 26th, 2018. Emma talks about her immensely gifted brother—full of light and hope—but how the shame/self-loathing of his sexual orientation dimmed his feelings about himself/his future. Emma talks about the decision that she and her husband Isaac made to name the Encircle Home in Heber City after Collin—now called The Collin Russell Home—and the positive role of Encircle to provide hope, connection, and a safe place for LGBTQ+ youth. And a wish that Collin has something like Encircle in his life. Emma (and her mother Laurie in an Instagram message) talk about the importance of helping our LGBTQ friends to have no shame for their sexual orientation and/or gender identity and how we should view every child of Heavenly Parents created as intended, with great worth, and needed members of society. Thank you, Emma, for being on the podcast and continuing to honor the good name and memory of your brother Collin. I am so sorry he is gone. I hope your story helps LGBTQ+ youth have more hope in their future and helps the rest of us to a better job of loving and supporting. Links: Emma’s Encircle Tribute to Collin: encircletogether.org/heber/collin-russell Collin Russell Encircle Tribute Video: www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMi1VwVHLdo Encircle: encircletogether.org/ Collin's Obituary: www.serenityfhs.com/obituaries/Collin-Russell-2/#!/Obituary Emma Westwood on Instagram: @emmathejoy

Transcribed - Published: 28 November 2024

**This episode talks about suicide. If you are suicidal, please call/text/chat 988** My friend Chloe Siegfried (she/her, gay, age 27, Salt Lake City native, deep belief in God/prayer) joins us to share her story of growing up LDS, coming out as gay, and then turning to alcohol and being in unhealthy relationships—partly to deal with her pain. Chloe talks about multiple suicide attempts, inpatient stays, and dark days. Chloe talks about prayer—one of the constants in her life and how she was finally able to stay sober on January 1st, 2023. It is a beautiful story of courage, prayer, family support and learning self-love. Chloe also talks about finding Ashlon and the beauty and health of that relationship and decided to get marriage in October of 2024. Chloe talks about her family support-including her younger brother Cole (the first person she came out to) officiating at the wedding. Chloe talks about her current work in a recover center helping others. Chloe is doing the podcast to talk to her younger self—and anyone else who is considering suicide who is full of pain, unable to love themselves and/or seeing no light at the end of the tunnel. Chloe is able to authentically say “it does get better”. In join with Chloe and plead with you to stay. If you are in a tough place or looking for a story to help others, please listen to Chloe’s story and share with others. Thank you for being on the podcast Chloe. You are a remarkable and brave woman. Honored to have you on the podcast. Links: Chloe’s Instagram: @chlo.siegfried Picture mentioned in the podcast of man considering jumping: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/ts7u8ilxoh2f6kyhiw6h9/Man-Considering-Jumping.jpg?rlkey=uijx4mlrqz8oe0m9re5w39z66&dl=0

Transcribed - Published: 25 November 2024

Our son Jake Ostler (Undergraduate Degree in Psychology, Master’s Degree in Social Work, Certificate in anti-human trafficking, LCSW, working with sexual violence survivors in over 10 different countries since 2016) joins us to talk about his new non-profit called International Protection Alliance (protectall.org/). Jacob also serves on the Board of the Utah Social Work Association. Jake, who is looking for donations and supporters for his new non-profit, talks about why he co-founded it, its mission (to stop online sexual exploitation and support survivors), and how you can help. Jake also talks about the myths and facts of sex trafficking and what parents can do to better help their kids to be safe. While you can’t donate to our podcast, I am inviting you to listen to this podcast and consider donating to Jake’s non-profit International Protection Alliance. I deeply believe in the work Jake is doing and his skills (clinical, organizational, financial) to run an effective non-profit with a mission to combat online sexual exploitation and help survivors heal—something that is so needed in our world. Thank you, Jake, for being on the podcast. Your parents deeply believe in you and the work you are doing. Honored that more can hear of your efforts. Jake welcomes any ideas for how you'd like to support the mission. Please reach out if you have ideas or want to be updated as they continue working and growing Links: Jake’s e-mail: [email protected] International Protection Alliance web stie: protectall.org International Protection Alliance Instagram: @intl.protect.all Facebook: www.facebook.com/ipa.protectall Jake’s Utah Clinical Practice: healingandhopeutah.com Jake’s LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/jacob-ostler-492716116

Transcribed - Published: 21 November 2024

My friend Oliver Black (RM, UVU student, grew up in Utah County) joins us to share his story with gender dysphoria and how we can help trans/non-binary Latter-day Saints feel more welcome. Oliver delayed his transition so he could serve a mission (Montana—great experience—wanted to serve to help others), but has now been fully transitioned for over three years. He talks about the positive experiences in his mission and the role of spiritual promptings when coming out while in the field. Oliver then talks about the love/support he's received from his parents and local wards—and the spiritual peace he feels. He also discusses the difficult road transgender Latter-day Saints walk and what we can do to better support them. In this regard, Oliver has written “7 Ways Local Church Leaders Can Make Church Safe for Transgender Members” (link in show notes). This labor of love suggests ways (given the new handbook changes in Aug 2024) to help transgender members feel more safe, accepted, loved, and needed. He answers tender questions I felt impressed to ask him, giving answers that were deeply insightful and moving. Thank you, Oliver, for being on the podcast and helping us better understand that our Heavenly Parents' love all Their children. You are a good man with immense emotional/spiritual/intellectual maturity—gifts that you are using to help us create Zion and bless others. Honored to have you on the podcast. Links: Oliver’s “7 Ways Local Church Leaders Can Make Church Safe for Transgender Members” document: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/j2r794h1v7zoodghc9h8x/Supporting-Trans-Members-Oliver-Black-Nov-2024.pdf?rlkey=exlksuqeqbux4hxwk9xi1bgwx&dl=0 Oliver’s editing website/writing portfolio: https://oliveraeblack.wixsite.com/about

Transcribed - Published: 18 November 2024

My friend and mentor Pastor Stan Mitchell (familiar with and friend to Latter-day Saints) joins us to share his story of his changed heart/perspective about LGBTQ people that occurred during his ministry at Grace Point Church in Nashville. Stan (who attended Latter-day Saint services as a youth causing him to reframe his view of Jesus from vengeful to loving) talks about teachings of Jesus to love/support/accept LGBTQ folks—accept/validate their pain—and be open to what we can do better to support these good folks. Stan talks about his work with Christian parents who deeply love their queer kids, their Christian beliefs, and want what is best for their kids. He offers suggestions on how to navigate this road. Stan also talks directly to our queer friends to help them feel more love, acceptance, and hope for their future—and a plea for those considering suicide to stay. Stan brings his strong theological insights, soft heart, and 1000’s of visits with people walking this road to help others. Thank you, Stan, for your work in many faith traditions to help us better love and support our queer friends. You work has helped me. Thank you for being on the podcast. Links: Stan Mitchell’s Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/stan.mitchell.58

Transcribed - Published: 14 November 2024

My friend Ben Higinbotham (mid-30s, BYU grad, non-binary, gay, active LDS, RM, they/he/she) joins us to share their story of self-acceptance and personal growth. Ben talks about their lifelong journey on this road of being gay and not feeling like they fit as a girl—including personal revelation, coming out to others, their strong relationship with God and finding peace/hope in their life. Ben also talks about shame—and how rather than curing them of their queerness, God is curing them of their shame. They talk about using the new name of Ben—including the backstory of the importance of that name. Ben talks about how being gay and/or non-binary is not a sin—but transitioning (even social transitioning) removes some church privileges, which can be difficult. Ben talks about how they are navigating that road and still participating in the Church. Ben loves Jesus and is trying to be more like Him—they strongly believe that it is possible to be both queer and Christian. Ben shares their love and musical testimony of Jesus through their arrangement of the hymn Amazing Grace. Thank you, Ben, for being on the podcast. I was so impressed with your spiritual maturity, deep acceptance, and love for all people. I loved hearing some of the personal revelation you are receiving included how much God loves all his children. Thank you for the courage to share your story and help us better create Zion. You are awesome and our church community is better with you part of it. Links where people can find connection with LGBTQ+ people and allies: https://www.liftandlove.org https://www.liftandlove.org/gatherings

Transcribed - Published: 11 November 2024

My friend Dr Tyler Johnson (former YSA Bishop, oncologist, clinical assistant professor at Stanford University) joins us to talk about his new book published by Deseret Book called “When Church is Hard”. Tyler talks about how different testimony types (“I know”, “I believe”, “I hope”, etc) actually are a good thing—helps us extend the tent of Zion and bring more people to Christ. He also talks about how not every Latter-day Saint will have a “I know” testimony and how that person shouldn’t feel like a second-class citizen—but a valued/needed member of our community. In the second part of the book, Tyler also talks about supporting those (and us) when God is silent. In the third part of the book, Tyler shares better ministering skills to support those with church generated pain or the pain they see in others. He talks about what do we do (in ourselves and helping others) when our “hearts breaks at Church”. Tyler talks about specific examples and the importance of validating pain—and how pain is a good thing as it should create attention to a problem—which is exactly what our body is signaling with physical pain. If you are looking for a book to help you (or better help others) navigating difficult church experiences, please read Tyler’s book. It is a book I wish I had read decades ago before becoming a parent or having church leadership callings. Thank you, Tyler, for your great work in our community. You are someone who I deeply admire and respect. Deseret Book: www.deseretbook.com/product/6020541.html Amazon: www.amazon.com/dp/1639931821 Episode 591: soundcloud.com/user-818501778/episode-589-tyler-johnson-navigating-complicated-church-topics-extended-the-tent-of-zion

Transcribed - Published: 8 November 2024

*Trigger warning: This episode mentions suicide. If you are experiencing suicidal thoughts and are in need of support, please reach out for help by calling 988. We care and we want you to be safe.* My friend, Colette Dalton (she/her) is a queer licensed clinical social worker and certified sex therapist. Colette was my guest on an episode in 2021, so she catches us up on her journey in healing from trauma and living with depression and describes her more recent experiences with finding what she terms as "Queer Joy." Colette also talks about her work with clients at Hearten House in downtown Salt Lake City; she specializes in experiential therapy, reuniting the mind and body, which is particularly important for many queer individuals with LDS backgrounds, due to high rates of internalized homophobia. Colette also meets with clients virtually throughout Utah, Arizona, and Idaho. Colette teaches us about a fantastic, free, resource for queer individuals and allies that she has recently developed, called The Queer Joy Summit (Nov 17-19). The Queer Joy Summit brings together over 20 speakers over 3 days to talk about how they experience queer joy and how you can experience more queer joy in your life, as well. Details for how you can register for the summit are included below. I am grateful to Colette for her courage, and for the important role that her experience and expertise bring to many who are in need of support and kindness at vulnerable times in their lives. Links: Queer Joy Summit: queerjoysummit.com Hearten House: heartenhouse.com Trevor Project and the study they did about queer kids not thinking they'll make it to 35: www.thetrevorproject.org/research-briefs/perceived-life-expectancy-and-life-purpose-in-lgbtq-young-people/ Dr. Brené Brown on Joy: It's Terrifying | SuperSoul Sunday | Oprah Winfrey Network: www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKV0BWSPfOw The power of vulnerability | Brené Brown | TED: www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCvmsMzlF7o

Transcribed - Published: 5 November 2024

My friend Laurie Lee Hall (convert, former Director of LDS Temple Design and Construction, former Stake President, in her early 60s) joins us to share her story. Laurie Lee talks about her lifelong journey to manage her gender dysphoria and eventually “live as the woman I am”. Laurie Lee talks about the impossible choices she faced in this journey as a successful 20-year Church employee (the last part in the physical facilities department—one of her last projects being the expanded Provo MTC) and serving as a Stake President. That led to Laurie Lee’s Church employment ending and losing her Church membership. Laurie Lee talks about continuing (for a time) to participate in a new ward and being accepted in Relief Society—and the joy/belonging she felt. She talks about “living as Laurie Lee and the peace it brings me”, the new August 2024 handbook changes restricting transgender members, concerns about a “surveillance culture”—all of which are covered (and more) in her new book. Laurie Lee also talks about two meetings she and I shared around 2016/17 when I was trying to become a better ally by listening to my LGBTQ friends. Thank you, Laurie Lee, for being on the podcast, writing your book, bringing beauty to Latter-day Saint buildings/temples, choosing to stay alive, continuing to make the world a better place, and doing the best you can with impossible choices. This world is a better place because of Laurie Lee Hall. If you are looking to better understand/support our transgender friends, please listen to this episode and read her book. Thank you, Laurie Lee, for being on the podcast. You are awesome! Links: Amazon (kindle and book): https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DHY2YJ6C Signature Books: https://www.signaturebooks.com/books/p/dictates-of-conscience

Transcribed - Published: 2 November 2024

*** This episode talks about suicide. If you are suicidal, please call/text/chat *988 *** My friend Hunter Howell (Bio Medical Science Major, New Mexico/Farmington RM, Suicide Survivor) joins us to share his story. Hunter talks about his pre-mission years navigating his same-sex attraction, completing a mission (including falling in love with a companion), and being a BYU-Idaho student. At BYU-Idaho, Hunter faced the most difficult chapter in his life recognizing he wasn’t going to be able to marry a woman—leading to a suicide attempt—which led to a therapist that gave tools for Hunter to find hope in his future. Hunter talks about his deep relationship with his Heavenly Father and Savior and their love of/support for Hunter. Hunter gives honest advice to queer Latter-day Saints considering a mission and/or attending BYU-Idaho. If you are looking for hope, please listen to Hunter story. Thank you, Hunter, for being on the podcast, for how you are, and for your ability to bless/help others. This world is a better place with you part of it. Links: Hunter’s e-mail: [email protected] The Trevor Project: www.thetrevorproject.org Facebook Group to Minister to LGBTQ Latter-day Saints: www.facebook.com/groups/1433556613672143

Transcribed - Published: 21 October 2024

My friend Heather Prinz (lives in Fayetteville Arkansas, Speech Pathologist, Sexual Assault Survivor: Dr. Broadbent OBGYN lawsuit) bravely joins us to share her story. Heather talks about her sexual assault under the guise of medical care, discovering she was one of hundreds of other victims, and her journey through trauma and healing. Heather talks about how she felt at the time of the assault, her inability to accept what had happened, how the assault negatively impacted her life over the following 15 years, and her road (with the help of great therapy) to find healing. Heather also talks about her decision to come out publicly after 2 years as an anonymous 'Jane Doe' in the ongoing civil lawsuit against Dr. Broadbent and the community of support this group of survivors developed throughout their attempts to prevent this from happening to others. If you are a victim of sexual abuse or want better tools to help others, please listen to Heather’s podcast. Thank you, Heather, for being on the podcast and your courage to share your story—which will help so many. Links: @thatsnothealthcare - survivors' advocacy Instagram @heather.prinz - individual Instagram

Transcribed - Published: 16 October 2024

My friend David Smurthwaite (married father of 4, gender expansive, active Latter-day Saints) joins us to share ideas on ministering to anyone struggling with the updated Church transgender policies. David starts with a brief recap of his own story (including talking to his Bishop at age 11 and opening up to his wife Marisa about 8 years ago). David then talks about the new policies—and what we can do to bear, mourn, and comfort each other given these difficult circumstances. David then answers questions (Resources/support groups, Should I come out?, Honoring personal revelation, etc). If you want to gain insight into someone (or yourself) experiencing a gender journey, please listen to David’s story and perspective. He offers powerful insights thanks to a deep understanding of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and a long view of being on the road to discovering divine identity. Thank you, David, for being on the podcast. I learned so much from you. Thank you for all your contributions to our community. You give me hope and better tools to understand, love and support my transgender/non-binary friends. Links: David’s e-mail: [email protected] David’s Instagram: @davidsmurthwaite_writer David’s Instagram post on handbook changes: www.instagram.com/p/C_R83ooxkNE/ Church’s Transgender Guiding Principles PDF: assets.churchofjesuschrist.org/1d/76/1d76991533df11efbaeeeeeeac1ed7e66fbf94a7/general_handbook_guiding_principles_for_local_leaders.pdf Episode 254: soundcloud.com/user-818501778/episode-254-david-smurthwaite-married-father-of-4-former-bishop-gender-dysphoria Life and Love Support Groups: www.liftandlove.org/meeting Monica Phillps on Facebook: www.facebook.com/monica.phillips.3597

Transcribed - Published: 11 October 2024

My friend Dr. Kristine Coons (active Latter-day Saint, Internal Medicine Physician, came out to her wife in 2014, was on episode 699) joins us to share her journey/insights. Kristine brings a unique and needed perspective with her medical expertise in understanding gender dysphoria and the nuance of defining gender/biological sex—along with her own experience being transgender. Kristine also talks about how the new transgender policies negatively impact her (and many other transgender Latter-day Saints) causing her to feel demeaned and a second-class citizen—something Kristine doesn’t feel in the other circles where Kristine serves. If you are transgender—of are looking for insights to better support/mourn with our transgender friends—our hope is Kristine’s story will help you. Thank you, Kristine, for being on the podcast. You are awesome. Links: Kristine’s PowerPoint: www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/kg25yhqw5e0gqh7zf95bd/Listen-Learn-and-Love-Podcast-9-19-2024-Kristine-Coons-Podcast-Link.pdf?rlkey=z7ekmdp759yfwot2ui35h199f&dl=0 Kristine’s “Variations of Sexual Development Doc”: www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/p1m6f6tby85xdqx7nrdbc/Variations-of-Sexual-Development-Kristine-Coons-Podcast-Link.pdf?rlkey=nnqsadgn3fl5fefiqj57wus29&dl=0 Kristine’s “History of Biological Sex Definitions”: www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/1rbi4brjroeo3qejhwrny/History-of-Biologic-Sex-Definitions-Kristine-Coons-Podcast-Link.pdf?rlkey=ritt2zucgp3ek7uwwl458ckq9&dl=0 Church’s Transgender Guiding Principles PDF: assets.churchofjesuschrist.org/1d/76/1d76991533df11efbaeeeeeeac1ed7e66fbf94a7/general_handbook_guiding_principles_for_local_leaders.pdf Kristine’s prior podcast (699): podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/episode-699-kristine-coons-transgender-and-her-wife/id1347971725?i=1000628774947

Transcribed - Published: 4 October 2024

Guest Host: Tonya Miller Exponent II has played an essential role in creating a shared, safe space for women and gender minorities connected to the Church to explore and express the impacts of "isms" in Church culture. It began in the Boston area as a quarterly newspaper in 1974 by friends who had met and worked on projects together in the Relief Society, and today it continues to provide that space, both physically and digitally. For example, when Exponent II was first created, the idea that someone might adhere to gospel principles and Church policies AND feminism was incredibly radical. Katie and Heather have undertaken a Herculean task in creating this commemoration of Exponent II's founding in their new book, Fifty Years of Exponent II, that includes the history of the organization and an anthology of selected works from the quarterly publication and blog. Heather and Katie describe the rich content of this compilation and share examples from their book that shed light on some of the challenges inherent in the task. They also talk about the ongoing need for Latter-Day Saints have to safe community both within and outside of the Church, noting the importance of not just feminism, but the impacts that ableism, ageism, racism, anti-queer sentiment, and ethnocentricity can have on members and their loved ones. I am grateful to Katie and Heather for their dedication to such a great cause and for their willingness to share their stories with us on this podcast. As a side note, I’m focusing only on sharing stories associated with the Queer-LDS experience now. However, if you would like to share your story about a different Church- or gospel-related topic on Listen, Learn and Love, please contact Tonya about the possibility of working with her as my guest-host (e-mail Tonya at [email protected]). Links: Fifty Years of Exponent II: www.amazon.com/Fifty-Years-Exponent-Katie-Ludlow/dp/1560854774 Exponent II: https://exponentii.org/ Exponent II Magazine on Instagram: @exponentII_mag Exponent II Blog on Instagram: @exponentii_blog Katie Rich on Instagram: @KatieLudlowRich

Transcribed - Published: 1 October 2024

**This episode talks about suicide. If you are suicidal, please call/text/chat 988** My friend Z Blanchard, (lived in Utah, Costa Rica, San Diego and Ecuador; Argentina RM; attending UVU in Utah; age 21) joins us to share his story as a bisexual member of the Church of Jesus Christ out of his heartfelt desire to give hope to others. Z (youngest of four siblings, with three older sisters) begins by giving insights into what it was like to grow up with the cognitive dissonance of being attracted to men while remaining very active in the church of Jesus Christ. While he loved (and continues to love) the gospel, he gives insights into struggles such as the constant pressure to come out to his loved ones, internalized homophobia, and self-hate, as he threw himself into efforts to be free from these stressors. Z talks about trying to make it work with a girl and feeling totally broken as the reality of his sexual orientation started to kick-in. This confusion, along with the outset of the global pandemic, led him to a place of hopelessness with no light at the end of the tunnel. He shares about the things that helped him stay alive both physically and spiritually during these difficult years (including great family experiences) where church/the proclamation on the family/some conference talks became nearly unbearable. He also talks about hitting an extremely low point which led him to seek therapy from Jill Freestone, a close friend and life coach, who gave Z tools and insights to find hope. One of these insights was into the Divine Nature and character of Heavenly Mother, a doctrine that caused him to observe, “if there is a more expansive understanding of God, then maybe there is a more expansive understanding of me”. Z talks about why he didn’t leave the church, but rather decided to serve a mission after coming out because of his testimony of loving Heavenly Parents and Jesus Christ’s power to heal. He shares some painful and beautiful experiences while serving in Argentina (including coming out to a few companions—with one companion giving him a powerful affirming Christmas gift—a story you won’t want to miss). Z is one of the most spiritually, emotionally, and intellectually mature persons I’ve met. He understands the Gospel of Jesus Christ and how that gives hope to others. Z’s story is more than the story of a queer Latter-Day Saint, it is a story of human resilience and the influence God can and will have on our lives. If you are queer or straight, his story will help you find more peace and hope in your life. Please listen and share this podcast with others, it could be exactly what another person is needing right now. Thank you, Z, for being on the podcast. The world is a better place with you in it. You have a great life ahead of you full of giving hope to others. Links: Z’s YouTube coming out video (English): https://youtu.be/xr87N0AvbHc?si=cxRqkiCxpQ-6vETz Z’s YouTube coming out video (Spanish): https://youtu.be/LrJI5CV1Ato?si=ya_Q6EztmB0Ecoub Z’s Instagram: @tegaaaaaan Facebook Group to Support LGBTQ Latter-day Saints: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1433556613672143

Transcribed - Published: 25 September 2024

This episode is dedicated to the loving memory of JeNeal Nichol Miller, who passed away on Pioneer Day this year. She inspired everyone she knew to be nonjudgmental and Christlike. She was a true ally and is deeply missed. **This episode talks about suicide. If you are suicidal, please call/text/chat 988** My friend Tonya Baker Miller (married mother of four, active LDS, Founder/Clinical Director of Cottonwood Counseling and Coaching) joins us to talk about supporting transgender/non-binary Latter-day Saints. Tonya has more than ten years of experience as a therapist working with transgender individuals, and also has transgender friends and family members about whom she cares deeply. Tonya talks about gospel principles, provides clinical perspectives, and offers ideas to help us better understand and support our transgender friends. Tonya addresses questions such as: “Is this a phase?”, “Is being transgender a disorder?”, “Is there a ‘cause,’ or do some people just ‘come with this?’”, and “What is intersectionality? And why are there so many transgender people also on the autism spectrum?” Tonya also talks about how complex transgenderism is. For example, the medical/clinical angle tends to utilize the disease model to characterize many challenges that transgender individuals encounter. Socially, there is so much judgment (political, religious, etc.) around transgenderism that we risk getting lost in abstraction and losing focus on ways we can show love and help each individual meet their day-to-day needs. She describes ways that we can support our transgender friends as they navigate this incredibly nuanced and misunderstood space. I am so grateful for Tonya and her work to support transgender Latter-day Saints and their families. I learn so much from her and grateful to have her on the podcast. I hope that you listen to this episode and gain more understanding/vocabulary/tools to better love/support our transgender/non-binary friends. On a personal note, I am grateful for Tonya for being a guest host of this podcast and writing a chapter in my third book about healing from Church-generated trauma (see show notes). You are awesome Tonya! Links: JeNeal Miller’s Obituary: www.legacy.com/us/obituaries/name/jeneal-miller-obituary?id=55698595 Tonya’s clinical practice: www.cottonwood.care Tonya’s Chapter from my third book, Building The Good Ship Zion (Chapter 3: Ministering to Those With Church-Generated Trauma): www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/9fvz6iy4k75nwp5tpupi9/Chapter-3-Ministering-to-Those-with-Church-Generated-Pain-or-Trauma.pdf?rlkey=zahycun2wv27opaq7l7s5y8qf&dl=0 Tonya’s earlier episode on this podcast (# 501) on healing from Church-generated trauma: soundcloud.com/user-818501778/episode-501-tonya-baker-miller-healing-from-church-trauma-strong-lds-families “Tonya’s Story,” (about supporting her son, Andy, during the time he was coming out as gay), from Gospel Library: JeNeal Miller’s Obituary: www.legacy.com/us/obituaries/name/jeneal-miller-obituary?id=55698595 Tonya’s clinical practice: www.cottonwood.care Tonya’s Chapter from my third book, Building The Good Ship Zion (Chapter 3: Ministering to Those With Church-Generated Trauma): www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/9fvz6iy4k75nwp5tpupi9/Chapter-3-Ministering-to-Those-with-Church-Generated-Pain-or-Trauma.pdf?rlkey=zahycun2wv27opaq7l7s5y8qf&dl=0 Tonya’s earlier episode on this podcast (# 501) on healing from Church-generated trauma: podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/episode-501-tonya-baker-miller-healing-from-church/id1347971725?i=1000550041715 “Tonya’s Story,” (about supporting her son, Andy, during the time he was coming out as gay), from Gospel Library: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/topics/gay/videos/tonyas-story Instagram: @tbird1490 Facebook: facebook.com/profile.php?id=100011381891072

Transcribed - Published: 21 September 2024

**This episode talks about suicide. If you are suicidal, please call/text/chat 988** My friend Caysen Crum (New Hampshire RM, Southern Utah University Grad, HXP Guide, Further Physician, Minersville Utah) joins us to share his story of doing everything he could to be “Mr. perfect and straight” (including serving a perfectly obedient mission, dating women, excelling at sports/academics) and how that eventually led to depression and suicidal ideation. Caysen talks of his love for everyone else—but how he had no love for himself. Caysen talks about hitting rock bottom with his decision to end his life and how a grandmother changed that decision. Caysen then talks about therapy (super helpful to end his internalized homophobia) and then powerful spiritual experiences while in Africa on an HXP trip including deep confirmation that God made Caysen gay—and that is a good thing allowing Caysen life mission of blessing others to be possible. Caysen also talks about how shame has no place in our lives and how it is eliminated “by the Atonement of Jesus Christ” and good therapy. Cayson talks about helpful people along the way (his YSA Bishop, therapist, camp counselor and others). It is hard to put into words how powerful Caysen’s story is—how he teaches of loving Heavenly Parents and our role of the Savior—and his journey to accept being gay. I was brought to tears a few times by the spiritual maturity, doctrinal insights. and goodness of Caysen. Our world and church are better off with people like Caysen part of it. If you are figuring out your sexual orientation/gender identity, need more Jesus/hope in your life, or want to better support queer Latter-day Saints, please listen to Caysen’s powerful story. You are a good man, Caysen. Thank you for being on the podcast. Links: Caysen’s Lift and Love story on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/p/C_QlDVIPkdJ/?igsh=MXJ3cTVjdjJvdnlkNQ%3D%3D Cayson’s IG: @caysencrum Facebook Group to Support LGBTQ Latter-day Saints: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1433556613672143

Transcribed - Published: 17 September 2024

My friend Ben Bernards (lives in Sacramento, RM, current Bishopric member, author, podcaster, EFY speaker, early 40s) joins us to share their family story. This story started with three children — a daughter and then two sons — but now continues with 3 daughters, as both of their sons are transgender. Ben talks about how he and his wife Megan are navigating this road to support their transgender and cisgender children, with powerful insights for anyone looking to support someone who is transgender Ben shares deeply spiritual experiences and powerful insights when each daughter came out at different stages in their lives, and the surprising feelings of calm and peace they felt each time. Ben talks about their goal to preserve the family relationships and walk with their transgender daughters—and also deeply spiritual experiences on how much our Heavenly Parents love Ben’s daughters—and how everyone is created in their image. Ben talks about how being “safe person” for them gave them courage to come out, when they were scared to do so. Ben talks about open ended questions like “how long have you felt this way” and “how best can I support you” to keep the conversation going. Ben also talks about grief/loss of changing family expectations—including the lives he once imagined as a father of two sons. Ben talks about the need for community of other LDS parents with transgender children. Ben continues with how the recent handbook changes (Aug 2024) negatively impact transgender Latter-day Saints and how the “border drawn in a new location and how his transgender daughters are now outside”. My heart aches as I see the painful impact of these handbook changes on LDS families with transgender members. Thank you, Ben (and your whole family), for sharing your story. It is a beautiful family love story. Thank you for giving all insights on how to better understand, see, and support our transgender/non-binary friends. Honored to have you on the podcast. Links: Dr Julia Bernards Episode 664: podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/episode-664-dr-julia-bernards-byu-dissertation-on-transgender/id1347971725?i=1000619444998 Gallup Poll on LGBTQ+ identification by generation: https://news.gallup.com/poll/611864/lgbtq-identification.aspx Poll at BYU finding 13% of population were queer: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brigham_Young_University_LGBT_history#cite_note-Survey-3

Transcribed - Published: 13 September 2024

Michelle and Steve Shaw are the parents of four children, three of whom have been diagnosed with neurological disabilities, ranging from ADHD to anomalies in the brain. They are active members of the Church and live in the Seattle area; Michelle serves in her Stake Primary Presidency and Steve serves on the Stake High Council. Michelle is also a special education teacher, and teacher of the blind and visually impaired, so she brings additional perspective to the issues that members with disabilities face as they try to integrate with Church culture. I am grateful to Michelle and Steve, and vicariously to their children, for having the courage to start having conversations about ways that we can make sure that each member of the Church, regardless of their varying capacities, feels safe and seen in the Church setting. Michelle and Steve talk about starting their family and having all of the hopes that many of us have at that stage of life. They describe having certain assumptions about the role that the Church would play in the lives of their children; they anticipated their kids enjoying primary and youth programs, and having a sense of safety and belonging that a ward family might provide. They also talk about their growing disappointment, as they have watched their children struggle in many of the settings and programs that the Church provides for children and youth. Michelle and Steve know that other members of the Church have good intentions, and that no one intends harm towards their children; they also know the heartache that accompanies watching their kids feel misunderstood, or “othered” by well-meaning members. They describe what it is like for them to grapple with the paradox of belonging to our family-centered Church, while also knowing that their family cannot always fully participate due to limitations in the flexibility of Church culture and assumptions others make about their kids. Michelle and Steve describe ways that they believe Church culture can improve so that no one feels “othered” and so that all of us can enjoy worshipping together. As a side note, I’m focusing only on sharing stories associated with the Queer-LDS experience now. However, if you would like to share your story about a different Church- or gospel-related topic on Listen, Learn and Love, please contact Tonya about the possibility of working with her as my guest-host (e-mail Tonya at [email protected]).

Transcribed - Published: 9 September 2024